capncrunch

Here are a few thoughts on career expectations:

In the not too distant future, half of the NWA pilot group is going to retire. 2500 pilots out of 5000. That is huge and will be a turbo boost to top seats for the new NWA pilots. Also, we will have big pay raises come the next contract. Those to things are a career expectation.

IF WE MERGE, almost all the Delta pilots will be ahead of the new hires and they will get those retirements instead of us. Delta is telling us that a pay raise now is worth selling out our seniority later. That is no good and will completely erase our career expectations.

With that in mind, a pay raise does not mean $hit, we already got one coming. The Delta bases are not pumpkin pie either, especially for a Northerner like myself. The idea of living in Atlanta is worse than a nightmare. No offense. The problems is, I can't snow machine fresh powder, ice fish rainbow trout and ski large mountains in Atlanta. Unless Gore stops warming the planet, Atlanta ain't gonna work for me.

I'm not trying to bash Delta I just want you to know that the merger is not lopsided like you think it is. I think both are great companies but I am not sure they are great together. I like milk and I like whiskey but I don't like milk and whiskey.

I wish you boys the best, on your own. Keep em separated!

PS
The truth of the matter is career expectations don't really mean anything. If your airline goes out of business, where is your career expectation then? We should all be fighting for a stronger company. Maybe its a merger, maybe its not? If a merger goes through, I hope it is DOH because expectations are not worth $hit. AKA, when you take a girl out for dinner, you expect to get laid but that does not mean its going to happen. What will you tell her if she says NO, "Hey, I expected to get laid so you owe me".

If you $hit in one hand and put your career expectations in the other, guess which one will fill up first?

reddog25

Remind our DAL brothers that they also have DC-9s flying. If they don't believe me have them take a look at their ATP type and tell me what it says. Betcha my frozen retirement it doesn't say MD88

capncrunch

If a pilot group is willing and wants the negotiation to go to an arbitrator, then the SLI they are looking over can't be very good. Going to an arbitrator is bad news. That being said, if bad news sounds like good news then there must not be much to lose.

Scoop

Reddog,
What difference does the type rating make? I have flown C-9B's and DC-9's in the Navy reserves for years and loved it. This does me no good if it is parked in the desert.
I have yet to get an answer from a NW pilot - Is your fleet growing or shrinking in 2008? As far as future aircraft orders go, they don't bring much to the table, maybe a place in line to buy the aircraft, but any orders after the merger date would go to the new combined airline and would not be NW orders anymore - there will be no more NW. For the record I don't know of any DAL guys who think we are something special, most guys are still bitter about the whole BK thing. If NW guys like their domicles there is no reason to think they would have to leave - the same for the DAL guys but if there is a displacement for DC-9's then they could insert themselves ahead of a lot of DAL pilots if they wanted to. The same is true for displaced DAL pilots and I am sure some would love to fly out of MSP or MEM or whatever, but with no aircraft retirements currently planned there is a much smaller chance of this actually happening. Like I said before I think DAL and NW are very similar as far as being competitive stand alone, but I think the difference in pilot demographics is so great we will not be able to work it out.
Scoop

Justdoinmyjob

If you're a new hire, whether it's DOH or relative seniority, won't you be at the back of the list anyway? By that I mean, by DOH or relative seniority, you will never be senior to me. I'm not trying to be a smarta*s about it, but how does either one keep me from bidding ahead of you? What is your DOH? I'm just curious where you would fall on our list. I have nothing underhanded planned.

Your argument however has merit where guys with several years with NWA are concerned, but couldn't I make the same argument about them bidding ahead of me to the widebodies Delta brings to the dance?

Again, I'm not trying to flamebait you, I'm just curious where you and I would fall on a merged list.

capncrunch

Good questions...

I am presenting answers to two different arguments. The first is that DOH should rule because expectations don't mean anything. Yes, I will be behind you and that is fine, I am a new hire and at the bottom of the list either way. The DOH argument is for everyone above me. You are right that the older NWA guys could swoop in for the widebodies, but they have been in the business longer and we are merging the companies. This is not a buyout and with that in mind, if we are going to be one pilot group then those that have been at the airlines longer should be at the top. That is how I see it. You also have to figure that pilots will go both ways, AKA, some NWA dude will take Southern bases and jobs and some Delta guys will take Northern bases and jobs. I think it could be good since the QOL for the pilots will be better if they are closer to home. JMHO

The second was that NWA pilots have career expectations too. For some reason many guys think that only Delta has career expectations and that they should get to keep those expectations. Ultimately, an expectation does not amount to diddly squat. Like I said earlier, just because you bought the girl dinner, expecting to get laid, does not mean that you are going to get laid. Saying I expected to get laid so pay up is not an argument. At least not one that is going to work. Certainly not with older pilots who have been in the business longer.

Scoop

. This is not a buyout and with that in mind, if we are going to be one pilot group then those that have been at the airlines longer should be at the top. That is how I see it.

Is this how it worked with the Republic guys? I don't know if its true or not but on the DAL boards they are saying that all the Republic guys were fenced off of the 747's for something like 20 years - true or not? Curious that now its DOH or nothing.
Scoop

capncrunch

I agree with you, that was a bad deal. I don't think stapling or lifetime fences is good business.

Also, it was a buyout and not a merger. Not that I agree with that argument either.

You know I just thought of something. I wonder if all of these rumors are all BS. Wouldn't it be funny if the reality was that the two groups have had a deal in the bag for weeks and that they are building up this potential walk away just to get the company to cough up more cash.

The reality is that the top brass want this to go through cause they are going to get rich. Maybe we should jerk their cord so we can sweeten the deal for those of us who are left behind once they pull the cord on their golden parachute. Just a thought....

nw320driver

OK Scoop, Since you seem to be the man in the know, where should I sit in your ideal SLI merger. I have been flying the line for 12 years with a seniority of 3632 out of 5167(our last APA) but when I was hired in 96, I started out with a seniority of 5979. I lost 15 days in the strike in 98 so that is gone. I just got a bid to the right seat of the B747. I can hold DC9 Capt and hope to get the A320 Capt bid in the near future. So what is my future, Check out on the 320 as a Capt and be frozen for the next 15 years (that is with a age 60 retirement) of my career. I am just curious as to where I would sit in your ideal SLI?

reddog25

Good questions. I was hired right after the NWA/REP merger. REP wanted DOH, NWA wanted 'career expectations' Both got what they wanted thru arbitration. You see for 10 years from from about 1978-1988 NWA didn't hire a pilot whereas REP continued to hire as they were a 'local service' airline. So would DOH work there? Of course not there would have been a 10 year gap, mid level, where REP guys would fall into the wide body seats. Remember the biggest airplane REP had were (6) B-757s. So the arbitrator comes in and says..OK you have DOH, but there are fences around each airplanes you bring to the wedding...for 20 years. New planes were ratio'd 1=1. Problem for 20 years then became was it a replacement plane (A-320 = B-727?) or new growth. Let me tell ya, as one pilot looking in from the outside it was a food fight. I still believe in my simple mind that there should be a fence on each side for 5-7 years as DAL had a mass exodus from the top. 5-7 years may eaqual things out. DOH would then be a fair system. I'll be retired in 7 years so I don't have a dog in this fight. My DAL brothers and sisters are always welcomed on my flight deck