NWA/DELTA Roadshows
05-11-2008, 03:36 PM
#101
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,262
Wasatch, I guess I view it differently. When I was acquired by Delta i could hold what I held before. I felt that was fair. The PFE could hold what they could hold before they were acquired. In fact within 6 months of the merger they were at the top of both FE lists in NYC and ATL because of the rapid turnover when hiring in the FE seat. They were as senior as they could possible get and now working for twice as much money. At one point there were 340 FE on the 727 in ATL. The staffing required only about 140 however they had to have that many to cover all the sick and disable FE's. Its funny no one mentions how bad they got screwed when they are bought until they are safe on the other side in the lifeboat. Then the spin begins. I still have pilots tell me how Delta put Western pilots behind Delta pilots not yet hired. A bit funny to me since I was one of the bottom Western pilots and not one Delta pilot not hired went ahead of me. Its also funny how perspective changes depending on what method of integration benefits your side the most. Get a copy of the NWA pilots position on the integration of the Republic pilots they put before the arbitrator. I think DALPA should dig it up and agree to accept it for this merger. As I pointed out once before fair is always whatever benefits that individual the most.
05-11-2008, 03:40 PM
#102
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,262
Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom
sailingfun,
To me, the fact that the PFE's were not ALPA is irrelevant, in the context of "fairness". Would it be "fair" if SWA bought Delta and stapled us to the bottom of their seniority list, after all, we aren't part of SWAPA and haven't paid them any dues money?
To me, the fact that the PFE's were not ALPA is irrelevant, in the context of "fairness". Would it be "fair" if SWA bought Delta and stapled us to the bottom of their seniority list, after all, we aren't part of SWAPA and haven't paid them any dues money?
05-11-2008, 04:10 PM
#103
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,865
Originally Posted by keenster
[/u]
You guy are Incredible. THE great aquirers. Just throw people under the bus. Here are some facts for you.
Delta is in much worse financial shape than Northwest. NWA's profit margin is the best in the industry -- 6 percent -- while Delta's is around 3.5 percent. NWA's balance sheet has $3 billion in cash, the best of the top seven carriers and double what Delta has. With a huge balloon debt payment due in 2009, Delta's motive to take our cash is clear.
Now let's talk productivity. Unionized NWA beats Delta hands down. According to U.S. Department of Transportation statistics, NWA has the lowest number of employees per aircraft at 82. The industry average is 101. Delta has 107 employees per aircraft, and they are basically nonunion. NWA employees historically have always been the most productive in the airline business. Who said unions hurt business?
As for the NWA pilots, the Minnesota public needs to know that the union's merger committee adjusted its proposal three times to get a deal and the Delta pilots never budged from their position. At the seven-year point only 300 original NWA pilots would be left in the top 2,000 pilots. Delta pilots would be flying all the international widebody airplanes. That is why the talks broke down.
We NWA line employees do not want Delta and we do not need Delta. Only the NWA management team does.
Another fair deal
keenster
You guy are Incredible. THE great aquirers. Just throw people under the bus. Here are some facts for you.
Delta is in much worse financial shape than Northwest. NWA's profit margin is the best in the industry -- 6 percent -- while Delta's is around 3.5 percent. NWA's balance sheet has $3 billion in cash, the best of the top seven carriers and double what Delta has. With a huge balloon debt payment due in 2009, Delta's motive to take our cash is clear.
Now let's talk productivity. Unionized NWA beats Delta hands down. According to U.S. Department of Transportation statistics, NWA has the lowest number of employees per aircraft at 82. The industry average is 101. Delta has 107 employees per aircraft, and they are basically nonunion. NWA employees historically have always been the most productive in the airline business. Who said unions hurt business?
As for the NWA pilots, the Minnesota public needs to know that the union's merger committee adjusted its proposal three times to get a deal and the Delta pilots never budged from their position. At the seven-year point only 300 original NWA pilots would be left in the top 2,000 pilots. Delta pilots would be flying all the international widebody airplanes. That is why the talks broke down.
We NWA line employees do not want Delta and we do not need Delta. Only the NWA management team does.
Another fair deal
keenster
Wow, according to Keenster NWA should be unstoppable as a stand-alone carrier - I feel for you guys getting stuck with debt-ridden, inefficient DAL. So what does your management know that you dont? I guess NWA stock is going to take off any moment now, any moment...... now, any moment.....now..., maybe not.
Scoop
05-11-2008, 04:45 PM
#104
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by Scoop
Wow, according to Keenster NWA should be unstoppable as a stand-alone carrier - I feel for you guys getting stuck with debt-ridden, inefficient DAL. So what does your management know that you dont? I guess NWA stock is going to take off any moment now, any moment...... now, any moment.....now..., maybe not.
Scoop
Scoop
Ferd <------------doesn't want to be saved, go take your life raft somewhere else, please.
05-11-2008, 04:50 PM
#106
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Guys this combination is going to produce a great carrier! Personally I am looking forward to the combines synergies it should produce. With oil going like it has neither carrier was going to see good times for quite a while. BOTH DAL and NWA bring good things to the table but it seems we tend to focus on what each other lacks, be it equipment, routes, pay rates, or seniority. What we should all be focused on is making this work and being a great company that we can all profit from and be proud to work for.
Just my $.02 worth
Just my $.02 worth
Last edited by NWA320pilot; 05-11-2008 at 04:59 PM.
05-11-2008, 04:53 PM
#107
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot
Guys this combination is going to produce a great carrier! Personally I am looking forward to the combines synergies it should produce. With oil going like it has neither carrier was going to see good times for quite a while. BOTH DAL and NWA bring good things to the table but it seems we tend to focus on what each other lacks, be it equipment, routes, pay rates, or seniority. What we should all be focused on is making this work and be a great company that we can all profit from and be proud to work for.
Just my $.02 worth
Just my $.02 worth
05-11-2008, 05:54 PM
#109
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,865
Originally Posted by Ferd149
Gee Scoop, you mean like your stock has taken off? Give me a break!
Ferd <------------doesn't want to be saved, go take your life raft somewhere else, please.
Ferd <------------doesn't want to be saved, go take your life raft somewhere else, please.
Ferd,
Give me a break – I am not the one extolling the virtues of my airline. I wouldn’t touch DAL stock with a 10 foot pole – I guess if you believe Keenster you are scooping up NW stock as we speak. By the way according to Keenster its DAL that needs the life raft. I think that all the airlines are screwed. I repeat, all the airlines, for the comprehension challenged that can somehow find pro-DAL meaning in posts that have none.
Basically we have two scenarios: First the cost of oil is just a temporary bubble in which case we can all have a few more years of blissful ignorance in a dying industry.
Or we are facing a new paradigm – the end of cheap oil. In case of the latter, flying will slowly devolve into what it was in the 60’s and 50’s – a luxury for the rich and a necessity for business. Just exactly how long do you think we can go on losing hundreds of millions of dollars? Tourism depends on cheap oil and without it you will see tourism decline. So for the really, really obtuse out there neither DAL or NW or any other passenger airline including SW is in an enviable position. The industry has grown to its present levels on the back of cheap oil. Absent cheap oil it will seek equilibrium at a much smaller level, requiring far fewer pilots. Sorry to be so negative, but ignoring reality will not make it go away. Hopefully for us the merged DAL/NW combination will be one of the survivors.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 05-11-2008 at 06:25 PM.
05-11-2008, 06:02 PM
#110
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,262
[quote=NWA320pilot;383902]Guys this combination is going to produce a great carrier! Personally I am looking forward to the combines synergies it should produce. With oil going like it has neither carrier was going to see good times for quite a while. BOTH DAL and NWA bring good things to the table but it seems we tend to focus on what each other lacks, be it equipment, routes, pay rates, or seniority. What we should all be focused on is making this work and being a great company that we can all profit from and be proud to work for.
I agree in part with what you are saying. Management and ALPA at both airlines also seem to think the merger has value. The big problem I see is that absent a big drop in oil prices there are going to be furloughs in the fall. Both sides will be blaming the other for those furloughs when in fact it is the price of fuel. There will be lots of hurt feelings and fingerpointing. I am afraid we will end up like USAIR. Given that reality I would prefer Delta to try and make it as a stand alone carried. I don't want 20 years of what NWA has had with Republic.
I agree in part with what you are saying. Management and ALPA at both airlines also seem to think the merger has value. The big problem I see is that absent a big drop in oil prices there are going to be furloughs in the fall. Both sides will be blaming the other for those furloughs when in fact it is the price of fuel. There will be lots of hurt feelings and fingerpointing. I am afraid we will end up like USAIR. Given that reality I would prefer Delta to try and make it as a stand alone carried. I don't want 20 years of what NWA has had with Republic.
