Not Exactly Eye-Watering
06-30-2008, 09:05 AM
#151
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff
I'm voting no. The longer this gets dragged out, the less chance DAL guys will have to pay via "sharing" NWA's furloughs.
If NWA furloughs this fall, as it sounds like they very well might, it shouldn't come out of my hide. That's why I came here, and didn't go there.
If NWA furloughs this fall, as it sounds like they very well might, it shouldn't come out of my hide. That's why I came here, and didn't go there.
Carl
06-30-2008, 09:07 AM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I was thinking exactly the same thing. What an interesting case study in human nature.
I truly am confused about one thing however. After LOA 19, DAL said "trust us" everything will be fine. You guys will have parity and there will be beers and dancing girls all around. Now we have a TA that gives NWA guys parity - just as you predicted. Now we have the Bucking Bars etal screaming about what a screw job this is. Here's where I'm confused: NOTHING ELSE HAS HAPPENED BETWEEN LOA 19 AND NOW EXCEPT A TA THAT GIVES NWA PILOTS PARITY. It's what DAL guys said they wanted. It has now happened. Why the anger? Did you really want us to be paid less than you? Did your offer of an olive branch only apply as long as we were paid less?
Not directed at you Justdoingmyjob, I'm just asking because I value your opinion.
Carl
I truly am confused about one thing however. After LOA 19, DAL said "trust us" everything will be fine. You guys will have parity and there will be beers and dancing girls all around. Now we have a TA that gives NWA guys parity - just as you predicted. Now we have the Bucking Bars etal screaming about what a screw job this is. Here's where I'm confused: NOTHING ELSE HAS HAPPENED BETWEEN LOA 19 AND NOW EXCEPT A TA THAT GIVES NWA PILOTS PARITY. It's what DAL guys said they wanted. It has now happened. Why the anger? Did you really want us to be paid less than you? Did your offer of an olive branch only apply as long as we were paid less?
Not directed at you Justdoingmyjob, I'm just asking because I value your opinion.
Carl
They are not upset about the parity. You will see that they (NOT ALL DAL Pilots) want NWA to furlough so they can have an advantage in the SLI....
Last edited by newKnow; 06-30-2008 at 09:13 AM.
06-30-2008, 09:16 AM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
The more I've read this board and the ALPA board, nothing has changed since Feb. The Delta hotheads (no, not all Delta guys) still want to buy my seniority, I got parity so they get an advantage on the SLI. So, let me ask it reverse. How much would I have to pay for say DOH? Should I have just kept my old pay rates, or did I have to take a 10% hit?
Yes I know this is a flame bait question. But, I don't think I've ever put out a flame question so maybe I'm entitled to one now and then.
Oh and no, I've never argued for DOH! I still think the simple math of the 5 to7 ratio (appx 1.4 to 1) with some massaging for retirements and your growth is what we will end up with.........outside arbritration.
Ferd
Yes I know this is a flame bait question. But, I don't think I've ever put out a flame question so maybe I'm entitled to one now and then.
Oh and no, I've never argued for DOH! I still think the simple math of the 5 to7 ratio (appx 1.4 to 1) with some massaging for retirements and your growth is what we will end up with.........outside arbritration.
Ferd
Last edited by Ferd149; 06-30-2008 at 09:28 AM.
06-30-2008, 09:25 AM
#154
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Here's where I'm confused: NOTHING ELSE HAS HAPPENED BETWEEN LOA 19 AND NOW EXCEPT A TA THAT GIVES NWA PILOTS PARITY. It's what DAL guys said they wanted. It has now happened. Why the anger?
Carl
Carl
Sir, there were two changes:
(1) Pay rates that are out of order based on aircraft capacity. It is my opinion that the MD88/90 rates should have been higher than the A319/320.
(2) Your MEC's side letter to retain surplus pilots.
Both of these changes to the status quo effect the outcome. Don't misinterpret our concern for anger. Don't think that we want your pilots paid less, or furloughed. We want to retain our pay, equipment and status. In the percieved order about 800 pilots jumped ahead as a result of one change and about 120 as a result of the other.
I want to hear the logic behind the decisions that were made.
Again, don't misinterpret this half time huddle as anger. We have watched the other team score four goals in a row and I'm at least trying to figure out, why? and what is the result?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 06-30-2008 at 09:48 AM.
06-30-2008, 09:42 AM
#155
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by newKnow
Carl,
They are not upset about the parity. You will see that they (NOT ALL DAL Pilots) want NWA to furlough so they can have an advantage in the SLI....
They are not upset about the parity. You will see that they (NOT ALL DAL Pilots) want NWA to furlough so they can have an advantage in the SLI....
Answer me this, is it your position that Delta pilots should take furloughs that NWA pilots would be taking?
Should a current lineholder on the 767 flying international with management spooling up to restart hiring for new 777's and 737's, should that guy take a furlough because a DC9 is parked?
Not trying to flame, really not, but that is the change in status that ALPA merger policy should be trying to avoid... yet this is an extreme, yet realistic, example of what could happen.
If you say "we are all one Company and we swim, or sink, together" I can see your point, but it is a pretty harsh outcome for the DAL guy.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 06-30-2008 at 09:51 AM.
06-30-2008, 09:44 AM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Bucking,
I'm not trying to imply all Delta guys think that way. You are one of the more better deep thinkers on here.
I guess I wonder why anyone should have an advantage. We may not be an equal partner in all of this but we are a 5/7th partner. To tell you the truth, my happiness with the TA is I thought it was a breath of fresh air from Delta management. I'm so used to getting kicked in the balls just cuz they could I was happy that we even got an agreement, much less so fast.
You guys keep saying you will hire in the fall. The way I look at it is if we furlough, those guys will probably be the guys used which will by natural selection put them under your guys.........hired May 8th of this year.
I think with they way you man per jet vs our per block hour, we are still under manned. I've been told we could park all the -9s and will still need to hire in the fall. Plus, you know our "transition teams" have probably already looked at this.
I'm a proud no voter from our last contract and would never try and talk you out of voting that way.
Good luck to us all!
Ferd
I'm not trying to imply all Delta guys think that way. You are one of the more better deep thinkers on here.
I guess I wonder why anyone should have an advantage. We may not be an equal partner in all of this but we are a 5/7th partner. To tell you the truth, my happiness with the TA is I thought it was a breath of fresh air from Delta management. I'm so used to getting kicked in the balls just cuz they could I was happy that we even got an agreement, much less so fast.
You guys keep saying you will hire in the fall. The way I look at it is if we furlough, those guys will probably be the guys used which will by natural selection put them under your guys.........hired May 8th of this year.
I think with they way you man per jet vs our per block hour, we are still under manned. I've been told we could park all the -9s and will still need to hire in the fall. Plus, you know our "transition teams" have probably already looked at this.
I'm a proud no voter from our last contract and would never try and talk you out of voting that way.
Good luck to us all!
Ferd
06-30-2008, 09:54 AM
#157
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
. . . . . . . .
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 06-30-2008 at 10:04 AM.
06-30-2008, 09:59 AM
#158
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Ferd:
We have to have parity in every way. When this is behind us, we want unity. You and I fly the same jet and should get paid the same.
You will like it here. Delta is the best place I've ever worked.
We have to have parity in every way. When this is behind us, we want unity. You and I fly the same jet and should get paid the same.
You will like it here. Delta is the best place I've ever worked.
06-30-2008, 10:06 AM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Ferd:
You will like it here. Delta is the best place I've ever worked.
You will like it here. Delta is the best place I've ever worked.
Yeah, I think I will. My old USAF buds have always spoken much higher about Delta than me or my AA friends talk about our companies.
Ferd
06-30-2008, 10:42 AM
#160
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Bar,
Aren't you arguing thta it's all about the SLI with you? Whether your position is enhanced by aircraft rate or "surplus pilots." Either you want the pay rate to be lower and/or you want NWA pilots to be on the street to ensure your position?
My position is that if this merger is supposed to be so good there had better not be ANY furloughs. More specifically, as long as there is one RJ flying with the DAL colors on it WE as a union should be prepared to walk if there is the mention of the F word. As management has said, they need the pilots on board to make this work. If at any point they want to throw any one of "us" overboard, then they should be prepared for the ship to sink. Yup, I said it.
Aren't you arguing thta it's all about the SLI with you? Whether your position is enhanced by aircraft rate or "surplus pilots." Either you want the pay rate to be lower and/or you want NWA pilots to be on the street to ensure your position?
My position is that if this merger is supposed to be so good there had better not be ANY furloughs. More specifically, as long as there is one RJ flying with the DAL colors on it WE as a union should be prepared to walk if there is the mention of the F word. As management has said, they need the pilots on board to make this work. If at any point they want to throw any one of "us" overboard, then they should be prepared for the ship to sink. Yup, I said it.
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