Not Exactly Eye-Watering
07-01-2008, 05:44 AM
#181
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B767 First Officer
Posts: 160
Carl,
This post will probably be lost in all the flames, but I am pretty pleased with the TA....once again, we get some improvements in a horrible economic environment while delivering on the promised parity. Many people predicted a DECREASE in the Letter 19 raises because of the recent changes in the economic environment...didn't happen.
I enjoyed reading about some of the NWA stuff...gives some insight into how complicated this merger is behind the scenes and I think our negotiators did a good job.
Also happy to see the flowback stuff extended to the entire pilot group.
Not sure how guys can be ****ed about a contract that gives them additional furlough protection (I was out for 3 years so I'm not some sheltered senior guy), 18% raises, increases in retirement, etc. etc.
Meanwhile I have family and friends getting furloughed in a matter of months and are worried about larger problems in their lives.
Keep whining "instant no voters". And for the guy who is so ticked at DAL and DALPA with 400 hours, I suggest you quit. Obviously this airline is not a good match for you and you'd be happier and better off somewhere else.
And to the NWA guys....I'm glad to see the parity happened. Maybe this will get some guys to get away from their unnecessary suspicions of our pilot group.
Here's to better days,
This post will probably be lost in all the flames, but I am pretty pleased with the TA....once again, we get some improvements in a horrible economic environment while delivering on the promised parity. Many people predicted a DECREASE in the Letter 19 raises because of the recent changes in the economic environment...didn't happen.
I enjoyed reading about some of the NWA stuff...gives some insight into how complicated this merger is behind the scenes and I think our negotiators did a good job.
Also happy to see the flowback stuff extended to the entire pilot group.
Not sure how guys can be ****ed about a contract that gives them additional furlough protection (I was out for 3 years so I'm not some sheltered senior guy), 18% raises, increases in retirement, etc. etc.
Meanwhile I have family and friends getting furloughed in a matter of months and are worried about larger problems in their lives.
Keep whining "instant no voters". And for the guy who is so ticked at DAL and DALPA with 400 hours, I suggest you quit. Obviously this airline is not a good match for you and you'd be happier and better off somewhere else.
And to the NWA guys....I'm glad to see the parity happened. Maybe this will get some guys to get away from their unnecessary suspicions of our pilot group.
Here's to better days,
07-01-2008, 05:45 AM
#182
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by capncrunch
Oh look, hes crying...
07-01-2008, 07:16 AM
#183
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by slowplay
Until there is SOC, a Delta pilot can't fly a NWA aircraft and a NWA pilot can't fly a Delta aircraft. Delta is bringing on at least 16 aircraft in the next 9 months and will be hiring this fall. That hiring will continue after we merge. There will be more than the current 7400 pilots on Delta's list, and most likely fewer NWA pilots than the current 5300 due to retirements. If you want to capture the "slots" vacated by retirements, I want to capture the relative position provided by Delta's growth prior to our integration by doing the math at SOC. That works in reverse, too. Should Delta park MD-88's and require fewer pilots, I should move backwards, not you. If NWA parks the 742 fleet, NWA pilots should move backward as you lose that "premium" flying.
All I'm saying is we should integrate with what we brought to the dance, and neither side should cherry pick assumptions.
And I appreciate the civil tone you're taking, Ferd. Is a nice change from the cereal fruit flake that comments here.
All I'm saying is we should integrate with what we brought to the dance, and neither side should cherry pick assumptions.
And I appreciate the civil tone you're taking, Ferd. Is a nice change from the cereal fruit flake that comments here.
I agree with what your saying, but the only thing I would add is that on the NWA side we haven't talked about growth or even staying the same since the merger started picking up steam late in '07. Prior to that, we discussed "if" cargo was going grow (not go away) and would we replace the -200s with the or A-330F or wait for the 747-800F and Boeing was pushing 777Fs. The company was looking for a -9 replacement, they wanted to wait for new technology like the new Canadiar or maybe forced to go after the biger E-195 for something quick.
Now, nothing but merger. So, would we have stayed the same size as a stand alone? Probably not in this environment but I would argue you wouldn't have either.
So, I would argue it looks worse for us than you shrinkage wise (think George Castanza) but I think alot of that is a function of the merger.
Ferd
07-01-2008, 09:30 AM
#184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Flare Armed
Carl,
This post will probably be lost in all the flames, but I am pretty pleased with the TA....once again, we get some improvements in a horrible economic environment while delivering on the promised parity. Many people predicted a DECREASE in the Letter 19 raises because of the recent changes in the economic environment...didn't happen.
I enjoyed reading about some of the NWA stuff...gives some insight into how complicated this merger is behind the scenes and I think our negotiators did a good job.
Also happy to see the flowback stuff extended to the entire pilot group.
Not sure how guys can be ****ed about a contract that gives them additional furlough protection (I was out for 3 years so I'm not some sheltered senior guy), 18% raises, increases in retirement, etc. etc.
Meanwhile I have family and friends getting furloughed in a matter of months and are worried about larger problems in their lives.
Keep whining "instant no voters". And for the guy who is so ticked at DAL and DALPA with 400 hours, I suggest you quit. Obviously this airline is not a good match for you and you'd be happier and better off somewhere else.
And to the NWA guys....I'm glad to see the parity happened. Maybe this will get some guys to get away from their unnecessary suspicions of our pilot group.
Here's to better days,
This post will probably be lost in all the flames, but I am pretty pleased with the TA....once again, we get some improvements in a horrible economic environment while delivering on the promised parity. Many people predicted a DECREASE in the Letter 19 raises because of the recent changes in the economic environment...didn't happen.
I enjoyed reading about some of the NWA stuff...gives some insight into how complicated this merger is behind the scenes and I think our negotiators did a good job.
Also happy to see the flowback stuff extended to the entire pilot group.
Not sure how guys can be ****ed about a contract that gives them additional furlough protection (I was out for 3 years so I'm not some sheltered senior guy), 18% raises, increases in retirement, etc. etc.
Meanwhile I have family and friends getting furloughed in a matter of months and are worried about larger problems in their lives.
Keep whining "instant no voters". And for the guy who is so ticked at DAL and DALPA with 400 hours, I suggest you quit. Obviously this airline is not a good match for you and you'd be happier and better off somewhere else.
And to the NWA guys....I'm glad to see the parity happened. Maybe this will get some guys to get away from their unnecessary suspicions of our pilot group.
Here's to better days,
Great post Flare. I've only seen the bullet points of the TA. You guys have the whole thing?
07-01-2008, 10:03 AM
#185
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by newKnow
Great post Flare. I've only seen the bullet points of the TA. You guys have the whole thing?
07-01-2008, 10:07 AM
#186
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by StripAlert
However, from the Delta side, there is almost nothing in this TA that's an improvement over the present status quo, including LOA 19, and the SLI remains a crapshoot. For the junior Delta pilot, the risk of this TA passing is far higher than from it failing. Standalone Delta is already looking to resume hiring in the fall.
I'd prefer to send this back to management explaining that we're going to need significant improvements over Letter 19 (for both pilot groups) to encourage us to sign off on this. The worst thing that can happen is no improvement over LOA 19, which is pretty much what we've got in this TA anyway. Eventually, there will be a JPWA, which won't be less than LOA 19 or the Delta pilots won't vote for it, nor will we support a joint contract that doesn't include parity for NWA, so essentially, there is very little risk in turning this offer down, while there is lots of risk for little reward (especially from the Delta perspective) in signing off on this now.
I'd prefer to send this back to management explaining that we're going to need significant improvements over Letter 19 (for both pilot groups) to encourage us to sign off on this. The worst thing that can happen is no improvement over LOA 19, which is pretty much what we've got in this TA anyway. Eventually, there will be a JPWA, which won't be less than LOA 19 or the Delta pilots won't vote for it, nor will we support a joint contract that doesn't include parity for NWA, so essentially, there is very little risk in turning this offer down, while there is lots of risk for little reward (especially from the Delta perspective) in signing off on this now.
There is an INCREDIBLE RISK in voting NO, because this merger is going to happen. And if there isn't parity and equality from day one we might as well of stayed seperate because we would have been better off.
07-01-2008, 10:45 AM
#187
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by johnso29
If you think your more safe by voting "no" you got a harsh reality coming. With the rate that airlines are ripping through cash at, where do think DAL will come up with the money to pay for those B777s? You think that these orders and options are the solution to $140 barrel oil? They don't do you a whole lot of good when you can't pay for the gas and you can't fill the seats. DAL may be looking at the possibility of hiring in the fall, but we all know that could change tomorrow, or it may have changed already. Stop thinking about the fall or next year even, and start thinking about the long term.
There is an INCREDIBLE RISK in voting NO, because this merger is going to happen. And if there isn't parity and equality from day one we might as well of stayed seperate because we would have been better off.
There is an INCREDIBLE RISK in voting NO, because this merger is going to happen. And if there isn't parity and equality from day one we might as well of stayed seperate because we would have been better off.
I think this TA is going to get a NO VOTE from the Delta pilots except a miracle happens.
No improvement to our pockets and pilots all want to be rewarded. No one cares about the fact airplanes are getting parked. If a big cake is getting shared and I worked very hard to make the cake, then why am I not getting my fair share of the goodies. I do not want to wait for you to bake another cake. Lets share this cake first and wait togather..
Accepting the TA is not going to make things alright and it will be many years before we can fight for an improvement to our contract.
Give all our future hopes up because the Northwest guys have gotten their improvements.
Frankly I do not give two hoots about Northwest and their pilots. They have Nalwaapa or whatever it is called looking out for them. I am concerned about Delta pilots and what is the boss going to do for us!!
You guys have gotten yours and it is time we Delta pilots fight for ours and when we get it. YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE.
YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A 100% PAY INCREASE BY THE TIME THE SMOKE CLEARS
I would merge with an airline from Mars for such a pay increase..
Last edited by Speedbird34; 07-01-2008 at 10:58 AM.
07-01-2008, 11:44 AM
#188
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by Speedbird34
I think this TA is going to get a NO VOTE from the Delta pilots except a miracle happens.
No improvement to our pockets and pilots all want to be rewarded. No one cares about the fact airplanes are getting parked. If a big cake is getting shared and I worked very hard to make the cake, then why am I not getting my fair share of the goodies. I do not want to wait for you to bake another cake. Lets share this cake first and wait togather..
Accepting the TA is not going to make things alright and it will be many years before we can fight for an improvement to our contract.
Give all our future hopes up because the Northwest guys have gotten their improvements.
Frankly I do not give two hoots about Northwest and their pilots. They have Nalwaapa or whatever it is called looking out for them. I am concerned about Delta pilots and what is the boss going to do for us!!
You guys have gotten yours and it is time we Delta pilots fight for ours and when we get it. YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE.
YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A 100% PAY INCREASE BY THE TIME THE SMOKE CLEARS
I would merge with an airline from Mars for such a pay increase..
No improvement to our pockets and pilots all want to be rewarded. No one cares about the fact airplanes are getting parked. If a big cake is getting shared and I worked very hard to make the cake, then why am I not getting my fair share of the goodies. I do not want to wait for you to bake another cake. Lets share this cake first and wait togather..
Accepting the TA is not going to make things alright and it will be many years before we can fight for an improvement to our contract.
Give all our future hopes up because the Northwest guys have gotten their improvements.
Frankly I do not give two hoots about Northwest and their pilots. They have Nalwaapa or whatever it is called looking out for them. I am concerned about Delta pilots and what is the boss going to do for us!!
You guys have gotten yours and it is time we Delta pilots fight for ours and when we get it. YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE.
YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A 100% PAY INCREASE BY THE TIME THE SMOKE CLEARS
I would merge with an airline from Mars for such a pay increase..
You're playing with some serious fire in today's economy. Watch out, or you might get burned. And you got yours remember, it's called LOA 19. It's funny how DAL guys didn't have a problem with that, but now this TA is just unacceptable. It's just never enough for some.
07-01-2008, 12:57 PM
#189
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by johnso29
You're playing with some serious fire in today's economy. Watch out, or you might get burned. And you got yours remember, it's called LOA 19. It's funny how DAL guys didn't have a problem with that, but now this TA is just unacceptable. It's just never enough for some
You big bad Northwest boys and gals
way to go folks. It is good to see someone getting a decent pay raise in this industryI feel we should give shooting the TA down a shot. No harm in trying. The roof is not going to fall on our heads today! And the Delta pilot group has never turned down a TA. We need to establish the will of our pilot group and send our MEC a clear message that they should do a better job of determining our wishes before acting. Sort of putting them on notice.
Did you ever read that comic book, Asterix and the Gauls. The guy who was always running and hiding afraid of shadows. That has never look like me and Delta is filled with warriors.
07-01-2008, 01:22 PM
#190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Speedbird34
I think this TA is going to get a NO VOTE from the Delta pilots except a miracle happens.
No improvement to our pockets and pilots all want to be rewarded. No one cares about the fact airplanes are getting parked. If a big cake is getting shared and I worked very hard to make the cake, then why am I not getting my fair share of the goodies. I do not want to wait for you to bake another cake. Lets share this cake first and wait togather..
Accepting the TA is not going to make things alright and it will be many years before we can fight for an improvement to our contract.
Give all our future hopes up because the Northwest guys have gotten their improvements.
Frankly I do not give two hoots about Northwest and their pilots. They have Nalwaapa or whatever it is called looking out for them. I am concerned about Delta pilots and what is the boss going to do for us!!
You guys have gotten yours and it is time we Delta pilots fight for ours and when we get it. YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE.
YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A 100% PAY INCREASE BY THE TIME THE SMOKE CLEARS
I would merge with an airline from Mars for such a pay increase..
No improvement to our pockets and pilots all want to be rewarded. No one cares about the fact airplanes are getting parked. If a big cake is getting shared and I worked very hard to make the cake, then why am I not getting my fair share of the goodies. I do not want to wait for you to bake another cake. Lets share this cake first and wait togather..
Accepting the TA is not going to make things alright and it will be many years before we can fight for an improvement to our contract.
Give all our future hopes up because the Northwest guys have gotten their improvements.
Frankly I do not give two hoots about Northwest and their pilots. They have Nalwaapa or whatever it is called looking out for them. I am concerned about Delta pilots and what is the boss going to do for us!!
You guys have gotten yours and it is time we Delta pilots fight for ours and when we get it. YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE.
YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A 100% PAY INCREASE BY THE TIME THE SMOKE CLEARS
I would merge with an airline from Mars for such a pay increase..
We (DAL pilots) need to take a long term view and vote this TA down. Is it a risk? Yes. But the merger itself is a risk. This is the only time we'll have the slightest amount of leverage. Does anyone think we'll have any leverage when this POS becomes amendable in several years? By then, there will be some new "crisis" (cabotage? price of vegetable fuel?) and the mantra will once again be that we need to give up what we're due to the "environment."
We're never going to get what we require unless we have the stones to take a risk. DAL pilots have nothing to lose by turning this down, which is why I've been harping for weeks that the "goodies" need to be evenly distributed. NWA guys want parity. So do DAL guys. What is NALPA going to give up in order to ensure (as Speedbird says) that DAL pilots get a piece of the cake they made?
Even in this "environment," management will have no choice but to find some way to get us on board after we turn this down. They have too much invested in this merger to walk away.
We need to send this back with a giant "hell no" stamped on it. Yes, other airlines are furloughing. Yes, oil is affecting us. But if this merger is truly going to create the juggernaut management is predicting, we need a bigger piece right now. We simply must not give in to panic.
We need to take a risk. When you consider the above points (and LOA 19), a "no" result has a limited potential downside--but a huge potential upside.
Vote "no."
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