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-   -   The truth about LOA 19 finally surfaces (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/32693-truth-about-loa-19-finally-surfaces.html)

satchip 10-27-2008 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude (Post 486416)
Yeah, I can't give you an answer on that one either. Probably a pretty good negotiating point...kind of like manning the 777 with twice as many captains per jet as the 747-400
The 777 flies over 12 hour legs which under our rules require 2 CA. I don't think the 767-400 routinely flies over 12 hour legs. Could be wrong...

nwaf16dude 10-27-2008 07:27 AM
747-400's max range is 7825 nm (from the nwa.com) vs 8150 for the 777-200 (from delta.com). Obviously the 200-LR is much more. Great circle distance from ATL-NRT is 7198nm or 12:49 mins at .85 mach. I think that reasonable men actually attempting to negotiate could draw the conclusion that the 777 and the 747-400 should be manned at approx the same crew ratio.

alfaromeo 10-27-2008 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude (Post 486443)
747-400's max range is 7825 nm (from the nwa.com) vs 8150 for the 777-200 (from delta.com). Obviously the 200-LR is much more. Great circle distance from ATL-NRT is 7198nm or 12:49 mins at .85 mach. I think that reasonable men actually attempting to negotiate could draw the conclusion that the 777 and the 747-400 should be manned at approx the same crew ratio.
In July, Delta had 10 777's which produced 10,000 captain hours of flying. Northwest had 16 747-400's which produced 9,100 captain hours of flying. That averages to 1,000 captain hours per 777 and 570 captain hours per 747. So a reasonable man would conclude that the 777 should be staffed about double the 747 on a per aircraft basis at least for captains. By the way in October the numbers were 9,500 for the 777 and 7,500 for the 747, so the ratio is getting worse for NW.

Every leg on every 777 is over 12 hours long, is that the same on the 747? Don't you use the 747 to hop around Asia from NRT?

satchip 10-27-2008 08:28 AM
I'm sorry I misread the original question. I thought it was the 767-400. As for why the 777 has more CA than the 747 it's because of our work rules. 2 CA 4 man crews for over 12 hours. Your rules only require 1 CA and 3 FOs, correct? Therefore twice as many CA slots in the 777. When we are all one happy family there will be that many more 747 CA positions created because of the new work rules.

Eric Stratton 10-27-2008 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by dragon (Post 486357)
Sorry,

Just how are we defining the A330 as larger than the 767-400? Is it because it has a couple of extra seats or because some marketing genius at NWALPA decided it was "Super Premium"?

I think that we'll need some fences for a short period of time, but if we ever truly want to merge and avoid the red/green disaster that has hounded NW, we have to move on.

The comments by the arbitrators were against both sides. Of course I think he was really looking at NW but I might be biased.
probably the same guy that determined the 9 slots were beneath the delta pilot group. ;)

on a more serious note aren't some of the 767-400 and A330's larger than the 777?

nwaf16dude 10-27-2008 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 486475)
In July, Delta had 10 777's which produced 10,000 captain hours of flying. Northwest had 16 747-400's which produced 9,100 captain hours of flying. That averages to 1,000 captain hours per 777 and 570 captain hours per 747. So a reasonable man would conclude that the 777 should be staffed about double the 747 on a per aircraft basis at least for captains. By the way in October the numbers were 9,500 for the 777 and 7,500 for the 747, so the ratio is getting worse for NW.

Every leg on every 777 is over 12 hours long, is that the same on the 747? Don't you use the 747 to hop around Asia from NRT?
A large portion (can't give you a percent) of the "hopping around Asia" is done by 757's, but yes, the 744's do a lot of it as well.

What destinations does the 777 fly for you guys?

nwaf16dude 10-27-2008 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by satchip (Post 486480)
I'm sorry I misread the original question. I thought it was the 767-400. As for why the 777 has more CA than the 747 it's because of our work rules. 2 CA 4 man crews for over 12 hours. Your rules only require 1 CA and 3 FOs, correct? Therefore twice as many CA slots in the 777. When we are all one happy family there will be that many more 747 CA positions created because of the new work rules.
So, do you staff based on previous work rules, or the new negotiated rules?

acl65pilot 10-27-2008 09:57 AM
It does not matter. I think that Lee and Doug signed a side letter to that effect.

bigdaddie 10-27-2008 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude (Post 486506)
A large portion (can't give you a percent) of the "hopping around Asia" is done by 757's, but yes, the 744's do a lot of it as well.

What destinations does the 777 fly for you guys?
BOM, ICN, KWI, PVG, DXB, TLV.

nwaf16dude 10-27-2008 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 486534)
It does not matter. I think that Lee and Doug signed a side letter to that effect.
Are you referring to the "SLI no predjudice" letter?


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