Denny Crane

I know under the old DAL pilot DB retirement plan one needed 25 years to accrue the full 60% but there was a caveat that you needed to reach age 60 or you were penalized a certain amount. In other words, even though you had accrued the "full benefit," if you retired before age 60, you did not receive the same amount as if you had retired at 60. Is this true of the NW frozen plan as well! Thanks,

Denny

Carl Spackler

After the plan was frozen, you still continue to accrue years of service toward the magic number of 25 years so that you weren't penalized for not having 25 years. But you are penalized 3% per year for every year you retire before 60.

Carl

Denny Crane

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. I believe that is very similar to the Delta pilots former DB plan. Does that 3% penalty per year still apply to the frozen NW DB plan? If so, then I would think that many NW 1985 hires, even though they will have 25 years in 2010, will stay until they are at least 60. Perusing your seniority list, there are quite a few '85 hires that have DOB's in '58, '59, and, '60 who will not retire until they are at least 60 which takes us to 2018, 2019, and 2020.

I guess my point is that the claim of massive retirements on the NW side in the next 5 years might be a little exagerated? (Of course that depends on what the definition of massive is, is ,is .....) Yes the 85 and before hires will get their full current frozen benefit but is that going to look anything like your benefit, you having been a 747-400 capt for your FAE?

Not trying to pick a fight here just looking for enlightened discussion!

Thanks for being civil!

Denny

Don't blame me, it's the mad cow.....

Kingbird87

Denny, the massive retirements are fact, if you are in a wide body seat at Delta, it is because the of guy that bailed early, and vacated it. The same demographics you mentioned at Northwest may have five more years now with age 65, but they are still the same as the guys that opened up your seats. There are 1915 guys senior to me at NWA and I've been here almost 22 years. I expect 50% to stay till 65, any more will probably not happen due to medicals, Either way, because of the frozen DB, it will a much lower percentage than at DAL.

slowplay

This keeps getting repeated, but it ain't right. Sailingfun posted the real numbers a little while back.

There were 2400 pilots that retired early from 2002-2005. Of that number, less than 400 would still be less than age 60. Minus that 400, they would have been gone now, early or regular.

Seems the NWA guys want their attrition, plus the DAL attrition too! We're in our seats because our demographics as separate airlines were and are different.

Denny Crane

Kingbird87,

I do not want to beat a dead horse but Slowplay is right about DAL's retirements. I moved up quicker because of them but do not "owe" them anything. If anything, I feel like I bought my position with my now defunct DB plan and, in any event, I would have held my position by now anyway. They did what they thought was right for them at the time and if I could have, I probably would have done the same thing. Regardless, the vast majority of them would have been gone prior to the merger being contemplated anyway.

But that happened way before this merger was contemplated and, IMO, really has no bearing on what each side brings to the merger. IMO, each side brings positions to the table and those positions should be integrated and then seniority numbers assigned.

The arbitrators will have to draw a line some where and the feeling I get from Bloch's comments is that they are not interested in the past or the future (Bloch's comment about the roulette wheel if you've read the transcripts). I think they are going to take a snapshot of the fleets on whatever date they justify and merge the lists. Who know if it will be DOH or status and category. We can all dream there will be a negotiated SL, but I think the odds are against it.

Like I said in another thread, to get a negotiated settlement one group is going to have to come off their basic premise of DOH or status and category. I'm not usually pessimistic but I just don't see this happening.

As many have said before good luck to us all and lets hope the three wise men can divide the baby!!!

Kingbird87

Denny, you did buy your seat with your now defunct DB plan, and for that I truly wish it were not so. Every Delta pilot has earned the positions they are in through loyal sacrifice and dedication. We both had massive hiring from 83-89 that either have moved up in the case of Delta, or are still waiting at NWA. Our retirements have projected me to retire under #400. We have earned that position through the same sacrifice and dedication. I would not trade places with any Delta pilot that has been stuck with a PBGC retirement, but hopefully, your greater earnings now will help repair the balance. We don't want to take your seniority or earned and entitled positions. We want a chance to fulfill the opportunity of the progression into the widebody Captain seats NWA brings to this merger. I am confident this will work out, and I honestly can't wait to get it over with, and hopefully without egregious fences that prevent us all from truly being one airline. Best Wishes, and look forward to some of the best BBQ in the South here in Memphis.

Denny Crane

King,

I would like to see you get the advantage of your retirements as well. My question is where do you draw the line as far as a date is concerned? (For fences)

The last time I checked I was to retire at about 185 on the Delta list. As an '88 hire and born in '58, I shudder to think what my "new" retirement seniority number will be under a DOH list. I haven't seen the NW proposed list that is making the rounds.

Looking at both our current lists, it looks like NW started hiring about 3 to 4 years earlier than DAL. I take you at your word that you don't want to take our positions. The reverse of that is true also, I do not want to take any of yours. But if the list does go DOH without huge, and I mean huge, fences, that is exactly what could happen. (IMO)


We are both part of two great airlines that will soon become the 800 pound gorilla......I can't wait to kick some.........tail!!!!

I'm with you, I wish this was all over and done with too!!!! I'm all for BBQ!!! I'll take the beef!! What the heck, I already have Mad Cow anyway!!!!!

Thanks again for the civil discourse, hopefully we will come out of this on the other side a strong, cohesive, and united pilot group.

Kingbird87

Beef BBQ, In MEMPHIS!, SSS..SSS...SSON, what in the hell have you been smokin? The king would rise out of his grave if BBQ were anything but pork. They burn folks at the stake in the Mid South for stretching a hunk of cow across a grill. I've spent all but two years of my career in the little tiny crew room beneath the Pit BBQ in Memphis, and you know what?, I know almost all of these people, and they know me. They remember my kids names, what I used to do, and the crappy jokes I've already told. All this talk about seats is fine for those of you in some big superhub, but for me, I've really found what I was looking for all along. Mercy Lord, please don't take it away! And Denny, I have been known to do a mean brisket several times a year in my lakeside hideaway. Please don't tell anyone, but you are sincerely welcome to have some with Miss Eileen and me out by the dock under the river birches. We have to eat under cover, you never can tell when the BBQ police get some of those Predators in the air.

Cogf16

King,
Nothing beats Kansas City barbeque, especially the beef brisket. Try Gates, Arthur Bryants, Rosedales, Smokestack or Zarda. Btw, KC Masterpiece maybe the worst barbeque in KC! Everything else is a distant second.

A Kansas City native