avi8tor4life

No flamebait. I'm just trying to get the story of how their groups were intergrated under one union to prevent whipsaw and to control scope. What unions represented each of those carriers back when they were on their own.

ERJdude

not quite, freedom was an AW feed in PHX, ccair was a usair feed out of CLT

AirWillie

Um... isn't it obvious? It's not rocket science. With that alpa avatar too.. you must know something about unions. The pilots agreed to anything to get all those RJs on property, they had no choice. It doesn't get simpler. That's why Mesa pilots worked under 8.5 days off per month until their last TA. The rest of the industry wanted them to fight fight fight!!! RAH RAh RAh!!!! It's politically correct to blame the pilots but everyone knows they would have done the same as them. Unemployment and future generations of pilot QOL saved or CRJ right now? You pick.

Slice

And don't forget when JO offered to bring 737's on the property for below industry average wage, we told him where to stick it. Easy for the kids that haven't been around much to jump on the bandwagon. If I recall, Duane Worth(less), head of ALPA National, signature was on that substandard contract...

winglet

AirWillie,

I'll post a review for those that are interested in the history of MAG ALPA negotiations. It's also a good warning to those unfamiliar with union-busting tactics:

Let's go back to just before 9/11. The MAG ALPA negotiators were instructed by the pilot group through questionaire to fight for industry average pay, trip rigs, duty rigs, block or better and line guarantee. The vast majority of the pilot group was fully prepared to go all the way with a strike fund and committee in place.

Then 9/11. MAG ALPA was the first pilot group to have to enter contract negotiations after 9/11. They were specifically told by the arbitrator that the Bush administration emphatically instructed the appointed labor judges that there would not be any possibility of a strike due to "national emergency" (not a good way to start negotiations). The MAG ALPA pilot group saw the rapid replacement of their flying with the CRJ 900 flown by alter-ego pilots . The CRJ-900's were purchased and ordered by management and were being placed in service at a rate of 1.5 per month at an alter-ego airline called Freedom Airlines (a la GoJet/Transtates).

In only their second contract negotiations, the MAG ALPA pilot group were now totally disarmed and were being replaced by street-hire non-union pilots. It may be surprising to some but out of over 1200 MAG pilots less than 3% went over to Freedom Airlines. The rest were street hires despite the massive campaign to educate the prospective pilot pool as to the true nature of Freedom Airlines. There were never more than 90 of these Freedom A Lister alter-ego pilots (These pilots later became known as the "Freedom A Listers" to differentiate them from the ALPA pilots at today's Freedom Airlines). These "Freedom A Lister" pilots today will tell you that they "didn't know what they were getting into". Don't believe it. They were fully aware and complicit in their intent. The word was on the street that if you went to Freedom airlines you were assisting in the destruction of a MAG ALPA pilot group.

Negotiations stalled and the reality sunk in that MAG management was going to pull it off and destroy MAG ALPA. Word slowly got out and Freedom Airlines became an anathema in the industry. Freedom continued to take deliveries but something started to become clear. They were having difficulty staffing their airline due to lack of interest. There were even Freedom A Listers that began to complain about being over worked and abused and were seeking ALPA representation !

Suddenly out of the blue MAG management offered to agree to industry leading scope and bring the CCAir pilots and the Freedom A Listers under ALPA (They probably saw that they were going to have a problem staffing their new airline). This offer was a one time offer and came with the caveat that MAG ALPA continue with the original substandard contract. There was enormous pressure from ALPA National to accept immediatly as all of the other regional airlines were studying the MAG alter-ego attempt and were drawing up plans to use the same tactics throughout the industry.

MAG ALPA pilots now had the opportunity to either stop the industry whipsaw or be replaced with a non-union certificate. They were told that it was for the good of all ALPA regional airlines. At the time MAG ALPA pilots were told that they were on the front line of a new wave of union busting and that they suddenly had an opportunity to stop the spread of this virus. They were told that they would be admired and respected by other pilot groups for obtaining industry leading scope and successfully destroying an alter-ego.

In summation, MAG ALPA pilots voted in the contract securing all MAG flying under ALPA pilots. The CCAir pilots were integrated into the single seniority list. The Freedom pilots went back to their prior positions. The ERJ's were placed on the Freedom certificate and ALPA pilots junior assigned to that certificate, hardly any of whom were Freedom A Listers. These ALPA pilots were subsequently denied jumpseats by other ALPA pilots .

If the alter-ego Freedom Airlines had succeeded it would have given a green light to the other regional managements to apply the same tacticts.

Hopefully I have shed some light on the subject...

winglet

winglet

AirWillie,

Correct, sort of. The prior contract was 10 days off minimum for line holders and 8 days off minimum for reserves. This was on a 13 month cycle which if you equate it to a 12 month calendar it becomes approximately 11 days off per month for line holders and 9 days off reserves.

The latest contract (which I personally voted against due to weak language and is amendable this year) finally got 11 days off for both line holders and reserve on a 12 month calendar, block or better, line guarantee, increased min guarantee (75.8 hrs), and still has industry leading scope language preventing MAG from flying any aircraft anywhere under any certificate with nothing other than ALPA pilots.

Good Luck on your end...

winglet

winglet

minimumwage4,

Had the original alter-ego Freedom Airlines succeeded you probably would have seen the regional unions systematically destroyed using the same tacticts. An example is TranStates. The waterskiers have unfortunately experienced exactly what MAG ALPA faced in 2001. Despite valiant efforts on the part of the TranStates pilots they were unable to prevent an alter-ego due to an even more sinister management than Mesa if you can believe there could be such a thing . Most regional pilots owe the Mesa pilots a thank you for doing their part in stopping the proliferation of the alter-ego model .

winglet

minimwage4

Nothing against Mesa pilots. I wasn't there, I didn't vote. I am just telling you what happened as a result of that concessionary contract you say was for the betterment of the industry, at least tell it like it is instead of putting a spin on it. The last part about "owing Mesa pilots a thank you" is laughable. With the money Mesa saved by essentially having day laborer crew costs, and with the scope they had, they were able to pillage the industry for years. Pilots to this day are still trying to negotiate out of the Mesa mandated industry standards as a result of that contract. Luckily for us all, Mesa eventually managed the company into the ground, you can't run a successful airline when you're at war with your labor. The fact that you stopped an alter ego has nothing to do with bettering the industry, the alter egos are going to pop up anyways and really, most airlines have an air tight scope unlike previous Mesa and current TSA. What matters is what you give up in order to stop it, Mesa essentially established a new low, alter ego or not.

winglet

Misinformed and incorrect. Good Luck...

winglet

rickair7777

Not so fast. I'll give some credit for good results but the freedom vs. scope resolution came about as much by accident as any other factor.

Legal action was pending on the scope issue, which by many accounts would have settled the scope in favor of mag alpa without the need for concessions.

OJ, apparently in a moment of frustration at the formal negotiating table, said facetiously that he would give the pilots scope right now if they gave up a long list of items. He did not expect them to take him up on it, and his council tried to retract the offer immediately. But the NMB guy would not let mag retract an offer made at the formal table...and mag alpa accepted the deal.

Did they really have to? Many folks think the scope issue would have been resolved through other avenues anyway, but I can understand the "bird in the hand" philosophy.

I spent several years living on the assumption that we had done a good thing and would take back some of what was lost next time around. I eventually realized that the odds were mixed at best on that...slightly over half of mag pilots folded when it came down to it.