hindsight2020

Don't get hung up on semantics. They're still paid considerably less than field grade officers, which is to say it makes civilian pay even better than from the vantage point of an FGO. And that IS the point, whether it offends people's sensitivities or not. The lack of traction regarding WO flyers in the AF boils down to $$$ and rational economic incentives, and not organizational minutiae between commissioned vs warrant like the army.

crewdawg

Spot on!

Only because I've also seen more and more instances of this rearing it's head. Some act like the requirements for flying positions are some sort of "state secret." One guy spends time "fighting the man" and the other spends time working toward requirements (degree/officership)...I'll give you 3 chances to pick which one comes out ahead.

This from a former NCO/current FGO.

rickair7777

The army uses aircraft and pilots in a support role.

For the AF, flying is inherent to their core mission, in the navy it is the primary means of power projection (since 1942). Since flying is a fundamental pillar of these services, they need pilots in leadership roles not just in the air elements, but in the larger organization. Using commissioned officers as pilots is essentially a means to attract talent some of which will eventually become key leaders. Most of the O6+ I know joined to fly, not to become admirals.

The navy recently did another experiment with flying warrants (since terminated). You can always find a few suitable enlisted for flight training, but given the technical complexities of modern aviation the bar has to be pretty high. I think they just couldn't find enough suitable candidates to justify maintaining and managing a career track. If you're that talented and motivated, the military will pay for your college, so most of the suitable and interested candidates probably already have or are getting a degree and/or commission.

Hobbit64

Rough math shows about a $2000 difference per month, not including flt pay...
I'm curious what you mean re: the bolded text.

Hobbit64

https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/warrant-officers/

crewdawg

That's not an insignificant amount of money. As a 16+ year O-4, I already take a massive paycut to go on orders. Adding $2,000 to that, does not help the cause. Viewed the other way, when dudes are on AD and looking at what they could be making (while working significantly less), if the difference is $2,000 greater, you would see a bigger exodus!

While I like the idea of WOs, I think it would only exacerbate the situation.

Hobbit64

Good points. I once had a College professor who retired as a Naval Aviator who was an LDO (Limited Duty Officer). That is the route I've always thought the Army should take to transition to be more in-line with the rest of the services. Of course this would require going to congress for more Regular Line Officer quota's (more $$) which the Army will not do....

rickair7777

The issue is not money, it's career progression... the army doesn't have enough appropriate career jobs for a gazillion commissioned helo pilots through O5/O6.

The Navy/AF need pilots in senior staff and leadership jobs which cannot be filled by warrants.

Different services, different structural needs.

Hobbit64

So what makes an O-3 IP in a Navy unit different than a W-3 IP in an Army unit? Different responsibilities? Teach, Maintain Stands records, manage unit training program, run CFC and or voting or EO program on the side. Would a Navy IP not do this too? Honest question as I've never been in a Navy unit.

As an aside, as a Warrant I've run the stands program, run scheduling, Functional Check flights/maint. program, safety program etc. Not throwing stones or quibbling. Just looking for the difference in duties you had as a Naval Aviator in the unit.

rickair7777

It's not about the current duties, it's about future requirements. In an ideal world (from the Navy's perspective) the O-3 will go to grad school after the tour, then DH, joint staff, then XO/CO, maybe another graduate degree, O6, major command, then command a strike group as an O7. Navy wants a large pool at the O3 level to feed that pipeline, to account for attrition. They also selfishly want to have more fully qualified candidates than they actually need, vice having to place marginal candidates in command billets. If it costs a little more in base pay, so be it.

Again it's force structure difference, has nothing to do with flying or middle-management ability. The army has a gazillion infantry, armor, and arty officers to feed their leadership pipeline.