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Flight Engineer time towards R-ATP

Old 10-12-2019, 01:59 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer View Post
An FE and a CE are two entirely different things. Donít think you can get an R-ATP.
Concur, no way helo crew chief qualifies as FAA FE.

That experience might get you a job as loadmaster in ACMI.
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:53 PM
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[QUOTE=rickair7777;2903130]Concur, no way helo crew chief qualifies as FAA FE

What about an Air Force HH60G flight engineer? 1A171 just on helicopters. Is there a way to get that 500hr credit?
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DBahr View Post

What about an Air Force HH60G flight engineer? 1A171 just on helicopters. Is there a way to get that 500hr credit?
61.159 (d)(2)(i) clearly specifies "airplane", so my read is no helo FE time. "Airplane" has a specific regulatory definition in the FARs.

61.159 (d)(2)(ii) does NOT specify airplane, so reading it at face value you "might" be able to count student or instructor FE time in a helo.

I don't think that's actually the intent, I assume they meant it to be the same as (i) so it's probably just sloppy language on the part of the FAA. So they would likely just refuse to follow the letter of the reg.

That's the battle you'd have to fight. If you have significant student and/or instructor time might be worth writing the FAA a letter and asking for a legal interpretation... you never know, might save you some time building. Search their database first, somebody might have already asked the question. Good luck.

Last edited by rickair7777; 10-29-2019 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 10-30-2019, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
61.159 (d)(2)(i) clearly specifies "airplane", so my read is no helo FE time. "Airplane" has a specific regulatory definition in the FARs.

61.159 (d)(2)(ii) does NOT specify airplane, so reading it at face value you "might" be able to count student or instructor FE time in a helo.

I don't think that's actually the intent, I assume they meant it to be the same as (i) so it's probably just sloppy language on the part of the FAA. So they would likely just refuse to follow the letter of the reg.

That's the battle you'd have to fight. If you have significant student and/or instructor time might be worth writing the FAA a letter and asking for a legal interpretation... you never know, might save you some time building. Search their database first, somebody might have already asked the question. Good luck.
The (i) (ii) and (iii) are written with an ďand.Ē All three elements must fit for it to apply, one of which, as you said, is the airplane stipulation.

In this case, itís not an airplane and doesnít count.
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by HawkChief View Post
Sorry to resurrect this old thread - but do any of you know if there's a comprehensive list of aircraft that qualify? 61.159 says "Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual". I fly as a crewmember on the UH-60 Blackhawk, but we've always been referred to as "crewchiefs", not flight engineers. I feel like it's a long shot, but if there's any chance of getting that R-ATP, I'm sure going to try.
The crew chief position will typically qualify you to challenge the FAA airframe and powerplant mechanic ratings. The A&P in turn, qualifies you to take a flight engineer course....if the course is still offered?? The 500 hours flight engineer time will count towards a full unrestricted 1500 hour ATP. I think Pan Am Academy still offers B727 or 747CL training but very few jobs! At a minimum, I would definitely get my records reviewed by the FAA for an A&P.

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Old 10-30-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer View Post
The (i) (ii) and (iii) are written with an ďand.Ē All three elements must fit for it to apply, one of which, as you said, is the airplane stipulation.

In this case, itís not an airplane and doesnít count.
There's not an "and" between (i) and (ii). But I think I know what they meant.
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
There's not an "and" between (i) and (ii). But I think I know what they meant.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight timeó

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

Itís an ďi, ii, and iiiĒ list of items. The way CFRs are written, there isnít an ďandĒ for each item in a list of multiple required items. It lists all items pertaining to the parent paragraph and uses an ďandĒ at the end of the 2nd to last line/subsection. Go look at some random CFRs and youíll see thats how all the rest of them are written for lists in which all items are required.
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:51 AM
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All very interesting! The role and duties of the Air Force "Flight Engineer" on the HH60G sounds more like a "special ops" crew chief with other duties. If the duties also include aircraft powerplant and airframe maintenance, one most likely could apply for the A&P by experience route.

The FAA flight engineer rating has three categories: Turbojet, Turboprop and Recip. I have never seen a flight engineer panel on a helicopter. Is the HH60G equipped with a engineer systems panel to manage electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, fuel systems, etc of the aircraft? It's possible some Russian helicopters have a flight engineer station but never heard of it.
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Old 10-30-2019, 04:31 PM
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After looking at the job descriptions of AF Helicopter FEs, there is some mention of "general maintenance" but I'm not convinced it is enough to qualify for challenging the A&P! Perhaps there are some who have succeeded in convincing the FAA.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a293408.pdf

It's basically a job that was created for the mission but the helicopter can be operated without an engineer, unlike airplanes with flight engineer stations ie: DC 10, B727, B747CL, Lockheed 382, etc.
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Old 05-02-2022, 11:29 AM
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Please clarify if I am wrong, but I have been told and read that 61.159/61.160 state to use the 3:1 FE time, one must have attended an FAA Authorized College defined by 61.1, and received their flight training (pilot) under Part 141. Am I wrong and given bad info? I have 1924 hours FE in a C-130 so I can max out the 500 hours, but told I cant use them because my college didnt have a FAA letter and most of my training is Part 61.
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