Inside the Israeli Air Force
06-16-2008 | 09:15 PM
#21
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Uh dude, the CSAF is a former SOF guy. He has more combat time than most 4-ships of F15s combined. Not being a smartass - its the truth. He flew AC130s in Vietnam then Talons in many conflicts. He was on the test crew for the Credible Sport Talon missions to grab the Iranian hostages after the unfortunate incident at Desert One.
I would venture to guess 99% of the SOF guys have more combat time than 99% of the rest of the AF..since Desert I. Although much of their time isn't ever categorized as O-1. Hell, I technically have 2000+ hours of combat...but they wouldnt let me log it as we werent yet in an official war. Then they released a policy that would allow me to go back and grab all my 781s to log it....never did. Wish I would have...woulda been cool to have that and a quarter get me some coffee.
I would venture to guess 99% of the SOF guys have more combat time than 99% of the rest of the AF..since Desert I. Although much of their time isn't ever categorized as O-1. Hell, I technically have 2000+ hours of combat...but they wouldnt let me log it as we werent yet in an official war. Then they released a policy that would allow me to go back and grab all my 781s to log it....never did. Wish I would have...woulda been cool to have that and a quarter get me some coffee.
06-16-2008 | 10:29 PM
#22
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From: 777 FO
And you didn't even answer the question either. Standard. Dude, the next AF Chief of Staff is going to be a heavy driver, guess lack of combat time didn't hurt him. My point is you put too much career emphasis on it.
As for the F/A-22 I would be willing to place a large bet that the Raptor will be put in front of the next shooting match to assure it gets some kills. I believe this aircraft is justified, others do not, and the PR campaign that follows will go some distance towards rectifying that. As for combat experience in that fleet it has quite a few guys with that square filled. At least one has a MIG kill. And they have been squaring away who gets in these days, too much dilution of core skills from what I hear.
Now we were having a nice little discussion and you have to start flinging sh!t with the pie hole comment. Why is it you have something to prove? Like most guys who meet you at the bar you would get a knowing smirk then get a good look at their back as they sought intelligent conversation elsewhere.
Oh, and if you do reply answer the question I posed to the Marine FAC.
As for the F/A-22 I would be willing to place a large bet that the Raptor will be put in front of the next shooting match to assure it gets some kills. I believe this aircraft is justified, others do not, and the PR campaign that follows will go some distance towards rectifying that. As for combat experience in that fleet it has quite a few guys with that square filled. At least one has a MIG kill. And they have been squaring away who gets in these days, too much dilution of core skills from what I hear.
Now we were having a nice little discussion and you have to start flinging sh!t with the pie hole comment. Why is it you have something to prove? Like most guys who meet you at the bar you would get a knowing smirk then get a good look at their back as they sought intelligent conversation elsewhere.
Oh, and if you do reply answer the question I posed to the Marine FAC.
Well, I thought my agreement to your original question was implied. I'm sorry you didn't read into it. Yes, one of the reasons why the Iraqi AF did not exist anymore was due to the success of the Eagle in Desert Storm. I agree the F-22 is needed. I'm sure that there are enough young Viper guys in the F-22 community to insure recent combat experience in that aircraft. I'm also sure there are enough old Eagle guys to insure combat experience at the leadership level. One of my points was that, yes, the lack of combat tours is going to hurt some guys and it sucks. They have my sympathy, not my scorn. You've already been corrected on your CSAF comments, so no need to address those. As far as the final comment, perhaps I should've put a little smiley face thingy at the end of the pie hole comment. Maybe that would've taken the sting off my little dart. I apologize.
06-17-2008 | 09:24 AM
#23
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From: Any, usually behind the wing
06-17-2008 | 09:26 AM
#24
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From: Any, usually behind the wing
06-17-2008 | 09:29 AM
#25
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From: Any, usually behind the wing
Deliberate Force: Aug.- Sept. 1994:
On 28 February 1994 4 Bosnian-Serb Soko G-4 Super Galebs were destroyed by two F-16C's. One of the F-16's (USAF 89-2137 / RS) shot down 3 !! Super Galebs, 2 with the AIM-9M Sidewinder, and the third with an AIM-120 AMRAAM. The second F-16 (USAF 89-2009 / RS) downed the 4th aircraft with an AIM-9M Sidewinder missile.
Allied Force: 24 March - 10 June 1999:
On 24 March 1999: a Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM (J-063) shot down a Serbian MiG-29 Fulcrum using an AIM-120B AMRAAM missile. This became the first air to air kill in Allied Force.
Source
http://www.zap16.com/mil%20fact/f-16.htm
On 28 February 1994 4 Bosnian-Serb Soko G-4 Super Galebs were destroyed by two F-16C's. One of the F-16's (USAF 89-2137 / RS) shot down 3 !! Super Galebs, 2 with the AIM-9M Sidewinder, and the third with an AIM-120 AMRAAM. The second F-16 (USAF 89-2009 / RS) downed the 4th aircraft with an AIM-9M Sidewinder missile.
Allied Force: 24 March - 10 June 1999:
On 24 March 1999: a Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM (J-063) shot down a Serbian MiG-29 Fulcrum using an AIM-120B AMRAAM missile. This became the first air to air kill in Allied Force.
Source
http://www.zap16.com/mil%20fact/f-16.htm
06-17-2008 | 10:11 AM
#26
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From: Body at sea level; heart at 70,000+
I didn't realize that only "fighter pilots" flew combat. The highest decorated USAF squadron in Vietnam flew cargo aircraft. The most heavily damaged aircraft in the history of the USAF (and survived) is in the USAF Museum. It's a UC-123 from the 12th Air Commando Squadron "Ranch Hand."
06-17-2008 | 01:36 PM
#27
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From: HMMWV in Iraq
Off the cuff I would say the four shot down in Operation Allied Force, Kosovo, 1999. Two of those were during one engagement and marked the first dual kill by a radar equipped fighter to date (if memory serves).
How many sorties did the Iraqi AF fly during Desert Storm 2? Why was that?
How many sorties did the Iraqi AF fly during Desert Storm 2? Why was that?
Touche', valid point on why they didn't fly. However, '99 was a long time ago, relatively speaking considering we've been at war for 5 years now.
My point was that in the context of "actions speak louder than words," there has been a lot of killing in SW Asia since 2003 that didn't involve any Migs. If your metric for "actions that speak louder than words" is limited to Mig kills, then yes, F-15's rule. I'm not afraid to say Eagles are the best at A-A, and if there is any A-A threat, I want them there on CAP for me. But I think it is a little inaccurate to say "actions speak louder than words," when there really hasn't been any "action" lately in the A-A arena.
As far as the rest of the thread goes, its interesting how as much as a single Mig kill makes you famous forever within the fighter community, yet using a well placed LMAV shot to take out a sniper picking off Marines or soldiers is just another routine day in the life.
06-17-2008 | 07:44 PM
#28
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I didn't realize that only "fighter pilots" flew combat. The highest decorated USAF squadron in Vietnam flew cargo aircraft. The most heavily damaged aircraft in the history of the USAF (and survived) is in the USAF Museum. It's a UC-123 from the 12th Air Commando Squadron "Ranch Hand."
06-17-2008 | 08:35 PM
#29
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Sorry, I haven't been following this for a few days.
Touche', valid point on why they didn't fly. However, '99 was a long time ago, relatively speaking considering we've been at war for 5 years now.
My point was that in the context of "actions speak louder than words," there has been a lot of killing in SW Asia since 2003 that didn't involve any Migs. If your metric for "actions that speak louder than words" is limited to Mig kills, then yes, F-15's rule. I'm not afraid to say Eagles are the best at A-A, and if there is any A-A threat, I want them there on CAP for me. But I think it is a little inaccurate to say "actions speak louder than words," when there really hasn't been any "action" lately in the A-A arena.
As far as the rest of the thread goes, its interesting how as much as a single Mig kill makes you famous forever within the fighter community, yet using a well placed LMAV shot to take out a sniper picking off Marines or soldiers is just another routine day in the life.
Touche', valid point on why they didn't fly. However, '99 was a long time ago, relatively speaking considering we've been at war for 5 years now.
My point was that in the context of "actions speak louder than words," there has been a lot of killing in SW Asia since 2003 that didn't involve any Migs. If your metric for "actions that speak louder than words" is limited to Mig kills, then yes, F-15's rule. I'm not afraid to say Eagles are the best at A-A, and if there is any A-A threat, I want them there on CAP for me. But I think it is a little inaccurate to say "actions speak louder than words," when there really hasn't been any "action" lately in the A-A arena.
As far as the rest of the thread goes, its interesting how as much as a single Mig kill makes you famous forever within the fighter community, yet using a well placed LMAV shot to take out a sniper picking off Marines or soldiers is just another routine day in the life.
As for history, which units were doing the brunt of rotations through out the ONW & OSW years? I'm looking at a pretty small snapshot I agree, but that is the point. My particular F15C was the first Eagle through 4k and 5k hours wise. That latter number occurred in 1996 on a 1985 tail (that is the year it was purchased and was produced with in a year of that usually). Yes, the Eagles flew quite a bit and yes I did numerous rotations in it. My point is how far back do you want to go?
If you pick only the last 3-5 years then yes, there has been a lot of action in the Middle East and the bomb droppers have been tasked heavily. If you want to roll back all the way back to pre-Desert Storm 1 then just pull up the flying hours of ALL the fighter aircraft (I'm keeping this narrow folks) involved and look at which fleet has the most hours for it's age. I don't remember seeing the bomb droppers in the CAP between the hours of sunset plus two to sunrise plus 2 for the majority of my rotations. My biggest fear was falling asleep going North and not having enough fuel to make it home once I woke up.
As for a single kill making you famous that could be argued. However, you would probably need to go back to the PR folks who started that entire scene in WW1. It was carried on in WW2 but the real honor belongs to those who got 5 or more regardless of which war, time frame, branch or country.
As for a grunt who shacks some piece of FOD at 1000 yards (or any distance) I salute him. That is one less piece of sh!t that could kill one or more of ours. That's a long way and I'm sure there is quite a bit of training that goes into making him good. If you know the guy who did that (not sure what is spoken of or not outside that unit) then speak a few kind words to him. Buy him a beer and tell him his bro's have one less threat, and we back here in the states support him 110%. I don't want him to ever regret what he is doing.
However we are on an aviation forum.
I did Desert Shield in a hummer with the 24th ID. I feel for you. Being an ALO is the pits. At least you are with your own branch.
06-17-2008 | 09:10 PM
#30
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Bifff15 -
"If you pick only the last 3-5 years then yes, there has been a lot of action in the Middle East and the bomb droppers have been tasked heavily. If you want to roll back all the way back to pre-Desert Storm 1 then just pull up the flying hours of ALL the fighter aircraft (I'm keeping this narrow folks) involved and look at which fleet has the most hours for it's age. I don't remember seeing the bomb droppers in the CAP between the hours of sunset plus two to sunrise plus 2 for the majority of my rotations. My biggest fear was falling asleep going North and not having enough fuel to make it home once I woke up."
This was meant for the AF folks on the forum right? Because I'm pretty sure that the USN F-14s and USN/USMC Hornets have been doing quite a bit of the same job on those sweet little cruises around the med and the gulf quite a bit themselves.
USMCFLYR
PS. I can imagine that being an ALO is tough and you're right - at least we are with our own kind - though sometimes it is hard to imagine when you're sleeping in the cave for a month and remembering how warm/cool your cockpit was the last time you were in it
"If you pick only the last 3-5 years then yes, there has been a lot of action in the Middle East and the bomb droppers have been tasked heavily. If you want to roll back all the way back to pre-Desert Storm 1 then just pull up the flying hours of ALL the fighter aircraft (I'm keeping this narrow folks) involved and look at which fleet has the most hours for it's age. I don't remember seeing the bomb droppers in the CAP between the hours of sunset plus two to sunrise plus 2 for the majority of my rotations. My biggest fear was falling asleep going North and not having enough fuel to make it home once I woke up."
This was meant for the AF folks on the forum right? Because I'm pretty sure that the USN F-14s and USN/USMC Hornets have been doing quite a bit of the same job on those sweet little cruises around the med and the gulf quite a bit themselves.
USMCFLYR
PS. I can imagine that being an ALO is tough and you're right - at least we are with our own kind - though sometimes it is hard to imagine when you're sleeping in the cave for a month and remembering how warm/cool your cockpit was the last time you were in it
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