block30

Recently a current fighter pilot on leave came through the local flight school to get a rental checkout. He wanted to take some friends up. Of course he needed some brush up on flying a new airplane, especially one so different from a fighter, but apparently his lack of knowledge on "simple" things was rather surprising.

In particular, he had trouble dealing with local ATC and also was entering the towered airspace without radio contact once he was out on his own. There were some other basic things the local instructors were surprised at too, but I can't remember.

Doing a little hangar flying with some pilots it was brought up that military pilots have certain things done for them, for example extra help from ATC to make their mission simpler. The idea sounded a lot like they fly under ATC's watchful and helpful eye most of the time. BUT-I know there are VFR training routes on sectionals, so I would assume they are knowledgable enough to do some of these things on their own and understand how to operate in the National Airspace System.

My question is simply this, do military pilots have some difficulty when flying on the civilian side? This gentleman spark my curiousity.


Regards (and respect to all- not meant to be inflammatory towards military pilots).

Also, I left the details a little vague intentionally so as not to tip my hand about this person's identity in case he or his friends visit this board.

BDGERJMN

Many others will chime in here but I'll take the first crack at your question. The short answer is yes most military aviators don't have alot of experience with the GenAv/Civ side of the house. I say most, not all. You have to remember that like anything else we military aviators became very proficient in what we do through alot of very specialized training. Some communities do very little VFR flying and even less flying at an uncontrolled field, for obvious reasons. There are some exceptions(Navy T-34s flown by Hornet pilots at the weapons schools or FRS for instance or TRACOM IPs as an example).

Some military aviators take the time/money to continue their flying on the civilian side and gain the experience you speak of. Think of it this way. Could you just jump into an Navy T-34 or a Texan II, get checked out in a few hours and be comfortable in a Navy or AF pattern or flying local course rules around a foreign field? I would say probably not and that is simply because you're not used to it.

There are alot of times I wish I had the civ. experience in addition to my military flying experience just as plenty of civilians wish they could fly in the military. It would have helped me out with my ATP flying, but the bottom line is this: With some very specific training most military pilots can learn the basics pretty quickly(my ATP syllabus was 4.0 hours and a checkride in a Seminole). The opposite may not be true. That is no slight on the civilian sector at all, it is what it is. I have seen plenty of dudes wash out of the Navy flight program who had a lot of civilian hours. Just my .02.

rickair7777

The kind of flying they do is very different (especially fighters) from civilian flying. Operating in the NAS is an afterthought...they just do that as needed to get to/from their their mission/training location. ATC understands this and probably does not treat them the same as a light prop airplane.

Airline pilots can also have problems when they jump into the GA world..even ex-CFI's with thousands of hours in bug smashers.

It's just a different kind of flying. Military guys can get a commercial ticket without ever flying a piston engine airplane...turbine power is second nature to them. They have been known to get in trouble because they cannot correct for poor planning or other problems in GA by selecting the afterburner.

But the average military guy can learn faster than the average civilian.

UAL T38 Phlyer

I had some civilian time before I went to USAF pilot training (not much, less than 200 hours). Still, I had a pretty easy time getting my private, read everything I could get my hands on about flying, and thought I had a pretty good understanding of how everything--aerodynamics through ATC---worked. However, I had zero IFR experience.

My eyes were opened at USAF pilot training, particularly in aerobatics and energy-management types of flying. This is in reference to aerobatics in the T-38, which was pretty representative of all USAF flighters at the time.

The Air Force taught me how to fly by feel AND by numbers. I felt at one with the airplane, instead of just a passenger with controls. On the other hand, almost all USAF flying is IFR.

The first time I flew a GA aircraft after earning my USAF wings, I was struck by how difficult it was to hold a heading, altitude, etc, due to random inputs of turbulence. Aimpoint-control on landing is MUCH more difficult in a slow airplane (60 kts on final) versus a fast one (150-180 kts on final.

By the time I got out to be an airline pilot, I figured I had it all wired again. I had GA experience, and I had tons of fast fighter time.

My first airliner was the 747-200. My first 12 hours in the sim were a humbling experience. Why? I had never flown an airplane where inertia effects of the fuselage or wing (when pitching or rolling) were more significant than the aerodynamic damping of the emmpenage. Further, I was used to flying by a stick-force--amount of movement was secondary to distance-thrown. Not so in the 747, or 727. Airbus was more like what I was used to, and that's why it is still my favorite airliner to fly (plus the logical systems).

My point: Most Air Force pilots have little to no GA experience. The first few times they try it, they may make mistakes. Doesn't matter if he's a fighter or heavy-lift guy. Since most Air Force flying is IFR, many of them will make mistakes the first tew times they fly VFR, as well.

(The flip-side of that coin is also true: I had a 4500-hour RJ Captain as a T-38 student last year, and he made a lot of the same mistakes his 30-hour flight-screened buddies made).

If you're an FBO renting to a military guy, ask if he has any GA time, and how recently. THAT will be more telling of his performance than what he currently flies.

SaltyDog

Yes, no different than anyone else operating in a new environment. Not a military/civilian issue. It is a new environment issue. New environments require thorough training. I have extensive GA/Military/Commercial experience. Treat each one with enormous respect. Often, the avionics being used has a big part of the situational awareness. We all know class B and C etc, but when VMC and using different avionics, one may not know exactly where they are at sometimes <g>. It has never happened to me
Also, radio routines being used differs in the environments. Flight following is different than being vectored, etc. Military pilots are in a very controlled environment when they fly just like airline pilots. VFR GA flying is enormously fun but also sometimes extraordinarily daunting. You are responsible for where you decide to travel, etc. Smart mil drivers are not embarrassed or to humble to ask for extra training. CFI's should not be embarrassed or neglect to offer extra situational awareness on the usage of the aircraft equipment, etc. to operate more safely in the environmeny they are being checked. Mutual respect among aviators prevents accidents. I have learned an enormous amount from all civ background folks just like the all mil background bubs. I'm a hybrid who still has enormous respect for the many segments of aviation and appreciate a good, professional aviator regardless of stripe.

bunk22

Military pilots, specifically tactical jet types don't typically fly in the GA environment....at least that's my educated guess. I flew COD's for 8+ years and was able to fly in and out of both military and civilian airfields. Hell, we'd launch from carriers to go to a medium civilian airport. Sometimes confusing military lingo with civilian lingo and vice versa However, it still wasn't much VFR type flying, except from the boat. Now being a T-34C IP at Whiting, that opened my eyes more to flying in and out of non-controlled airfields, mixing in with GA aircraft, etc. It's just something Hornet or Rhino drivers don't do. I've got some very few hours in a Cherokee Warrior as well, about 30 and GA flying isn't anywhere near as difficult as any part of the military flying world, just different.

SaltyDog

Bunk22,
I have lots of dead aviator buds from mil crashes like we all do. Also have 4 dead ones who did it in GA planes while active mil. All preventable IMO. ( F-14/A-6/SH-3/A-4) It's not difficult, but one can be overconfident or complacent.

block30

Thanks all for your input. I have lots of respect for those who fly military, and I don't claim that I could jump in and keep pace with them by any means.

I've seen military airplanes trekking cross country from civilian airport to civilian airport, so I figured there was a better understanding of getting around the NAS. I didn't expect this gentleman to be qouting us lines from the aircraft's POH or the FARs, but some of the basic getting around things he didn't know, or just brain farted for the day surprised me.

Also, I was in aircraft maintenance in the military, but I have rarely spoken with our pilots beyond just business. So I know a little of what their world is, but very little at that.

Finally, what you tell me can be a learning experience so I can help if any more military pilots come through. Then I or other instructors can help them more effectively. And of course, I'm just curious how you operate.

Regards,

TheSultanofScud

My vote for most interesting thread in a while...also least depressing.

kronan

Sounds more like a Navy guy who's not used to flying and looking at a map, and, I've got to say. If he was straying into towers airspace before talking with them, how thorough was the local checkout. Last time I flew, the FBO guy took me up and pointed out the common landmarks as well as the normal training airspace they used. Didn't just hand me the keys and say knock yourself out.

it's a whole lot easier to get yourself lost huge when you're flying fast, which is why every student I ever taught pulled the throttles back when they started figuring out they might not be exactly where they thought they were