UPT Survival
11-17-2009, 11:33 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
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Posts: 1,317
UPT Survival
A lot of people on here ask about getting hired, I'm wanting to know about surviving UPT and not washing out. Is someone like my self with a 3.0 for my degrees, CFI, in school for my A&P, prior service, pretty good AFOQT and PCSM scores and for the moment single, likely to make it successfully through UPT and earn my wings? What are some things that I can do to assure my survival if I'm hired with a unit? Hard part is getting hired, but it's a little harder making it through if I'm correct. Thanks for any info, and I apologize if this has been asked before.
11-17-2009, 01:32 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
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Posts: 101
Originally Posted by jsfBoat
A lot of people on here ask about getting hired, I'm wanting to know about surviving UPT and not washing out. Is someone like my self with a 3.0 for my degrees, CFI, in school for my A&P, prior service, pretty good AFOQT and PCSM scores and for the moment single, likely to make it successfully through UPT and earn my wings? What are some things that I can do to assure my survival if I'm hired with a unit? Hard part is getting hired, but it's a little harder making it through if I'm correct. Thanks for any info, and I apologize if this has been asked before.
I agree that the hardest part will probably be getting hired. You seem to have a good attitude, though. UPT is a tough program, but you seem to have the tools to succeed.
It's a cliche, but the program is half (or more) attitude. If you do happen to hit a rough patch in your training, they will bend over backwards to get you through it if you have a good attitude.
11-17-2009, 06:03 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 777 FO
Posts: 931
Keep your ears open, your head down, your mouth shut. Pretend to forget what you know from your CFI days. As a minimum, try to downplay that you have prior time if you have to mention it all. Listen to your IPs, study with your buddies, try to be a good dude and have fun. As others pointed out, keep a good attitude, especially when you have momentary setbacks, and you can make it through.
11-17-2009, 08:58 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Depends on History and Track
JSF Boat:
When I was a student (1983), everyone went T-37 to T-38. 30% of my class washed-out or quit. The bulk of the washouts were in T-38s, which is a different-kind of landing airplane. The quitters were mostly in the T-37.
Today, about half of all students go T-1, and half T-38. In the last 10 years I think I've only seen a handful of people wash out of the T-38 (maybe 2-3%)....but for fighter follow-ons, I would guess a good 15-20% wash out of IFF (follow-on T-38 training prior to Fighter training).
I don't have specific details, but I have heard almost no one has ever washed out of T-1s. It is my impression the washout rate is less than 1%.
I have seen students with credentials such as yours do extremely well, and also do extremely poorly. Some of the poor-performers had great attitudes, but (for example) couldn't adapt from a familiar 120-kt mindset to a 480-kt mindset.
It takes dedication and persistence. but the final answer is most people make it through the regular course. It starts getting tough with fighter-prep.
If you get to go, good luck and have fun. I still consider it one of the best years of my life.
When I was a student (1983), everyone went T-37 to T-38. 30% of my class washed-out or quit. The bulk of the washouts were in T-38s, which is a different-kind of landing airplane. The quitters were mostly in the T-37.
Today, about half of all students go T-1, and half T-38. In the last 10 years I think I've only seen a handful of people wash out of the T-38 (maybe 2-3%)....but for fighter follow-ons, I would guess a good 15-20% wash out of IFF (follow-on T-38 training prior to Fighter training).
I don't have specific details, but I have heard almost no one has ever washed out of T-1s. It is my impression the washout rate is less than 1%.
I have seen students with credentials such as yours do extremely well, and also do extremely poorly. Some of the poor-performers had great attitudes, but (for example) couldn't adapt from a familiar 120-kt mindset to a 480-kt mindset.
It takes dedication and persistence. but the final answer is most people make it through the regular course. It starts getting tough with fighter-prep.
If you get to go, good luck and have fun. I still consider it one of the best years of my life.
11-17-2009, 11:20 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by Deuce130
Keep your ears open, your head down, your mouth shut. Pretend to forget what you know from your CFI days. As a minimum, try to downplay that you have prior time if you have to mention it all. Listen to your IPs, study with your buddies, try to be a good dude and have fun. As others pointed out, keep a good attitude, especially when you have momentary setbacks, and you can make it through.
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
JSF Boat:
When I was a student (1983), everyone went T-37 to T-38. 30% of my class washed-out or quit. The bulk of the washouts were in T-38s, which is a different-kind of landing airplane. The quitters were mostly in the T-37.
Today, about half of all students go T-1, and half T-38. In the last 10 years I think I've only seen a handful of people wash out of the T-38 (maybe 2-3%)....but for fighter follow-ons, I would guess a good 15-20% wash out of IFF (follow-on T-38 training prior to Fighter training).
I don't have specific details, but I have heard almost no one has ever washed out of T-1s. It is my impression the washout rate is less than 1%.
I have seen students with credentials such as yours do extremely well, and also do extremely poorly. Some of the poor-performers had great attitudes, but (for example) couldn't adapt from a familiar 120-kt mindset to a 480-kt mindset.
It takes dedication and persistence. but the final answer is most people make it through the regular course. It starts getting tough with fighter-prep.
If you get to go, good luck and have fun. I still consider it one of the best years of my life.
When I was a student (1983), everyone went T-37 to T-38. 30% of my class washed-out or quit. The bulk of the washouts were in T-38s, which is a different-kind of landing airplane. The quitters were mostly in the T-37.
Today, about half of all students go T-1, and half T-38. In the last 10 years I think I've only seen a handful of people wash out of the T-38 (maybe 2-3%)....but for fighter follow-ons, I would guess a good 15-20% wash out of IFF (follow-on T-38 training prior to Fighter training).
I don't have specific details, but I have heard almost no one has ever washed out of T-1s. It is my impression the washout rate is less than 1%.
I have seen students with credentials such as yours do extremely well, and also do extremely poorly. Some of the poor-performers had great attitudes, but (for example) couldn't adapt from a familiar 120-kt mindset to a 480-kt mindset.
It takes dedication and persistence. but the final answer is most people make it through the regular course. It starts getting tough with fighter-prep.
If you get to go, good luck and have fun. I still consider it one of the best years of my life.
USMCFLYR
11-18-2009, 03:08 AM
#10
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
I had another APCer PM me about going through UPT w/ lots of civilian time and we had a few posts back and forth. Much of what I sent him applies to your question:
A much more likely issue could be that most of the aircraft young, civilian pilots acquire significant flying time in are slow, simple light aircraft (Cessna 152, 172, Piper warrior, etc.) Those aircraft have approach speeds that aren’t much faster than a car on the highway and cruise at slightly over 100 knots. From my experience, pilots spend much of their training learning to anticipate, react quickly and “stay ahead” of the aircraft. If all of that training prior to UPT has occurred in the ~100 knot regime, then their “mental clocks” get calibrated to reacting and planning at that speed. I think for some “high timers” it can be very difficult to re-calibrate their mental clocks to the higher speeds used by the trainers in UPT. A zero time guy in UPT doesn’t know anything different and just adapts to the speeds.
For pilots taking the fighter track, they are into the T-38C after only 6 months of UPT. You fly that aircraft at 300 KIAS around the VFR pattern, on the initial portion of high altitude instrument penetrations, on radar vectors, basically all the time until you put your gear down. Some guys are never able to get ahead of that aircraft.The only personal experience I have with this is the reverse situation. After 10 years of flying fighters, I went to get my ATP in a Seminole twin. I was completely out of my element with no twin recip time and less than 30 hours of single recip time more than 10 year earlier. The only thing that allowed me to be successful was the fact that the darn plane was so slow. I was so used to thinking and planning instrument approaches at 300+ knots, that it was impossible for me to get behind. My mental clock was working 3 times faster than I needed it to in a Seminole. I can see how it would be very difficult in the opposite situation.
I’m sure many high time pilots get comfortable in the aircraft they have accumulated their time in up to that point. With 1200 hours, I doubt you have to spend hours “chair-flying” before you go up. I realize every civilian student and instructor could be different and not all are like I describe – but many are. Study and training habits built in civilian flying may not work well in UPT. Many civilian student pilots go up with their instructor and are told what to do. They have little pre-mission planning and the instruction is fed to them piece by piece by their instructor as the training flight progresses. They spend their training flight reacting to their instructor, to their aircraft and the flying environment.
UPT students are taught to anticipate as much as possible from the start. It’s not possible to spend an entire training sortie reacting – you will get behind the jet quickly. UPT students go through a pre-mission brief with their instructor which involves detailed instruction on each event. Once they take off, the students are expected to orchestrate the mission with minimal inputs from the instructor. They talk on the radio, stay within the confines of the MOA, fly the planned profile, events and maneuvers using entry parameters, altitudes, speeds, power settings while the instructor monitors and offers instruction if necessary. It’s a challenging approach and it requires hours of study, chair flying and repetition to get really good at it.
Advice:
Keep the details of your previous flying experience to yourself. If you’re asked about it, keep it short and to the point. Don’t advertise you have lots of civilian time to your classmates. If it ends up helping you, great, you just look like an above average student. Why you’re above average isn’t really that important.
Try to learn everything the way they want you to learn it in UPT. Avoid questions about things just because they seem to be done differently from the way you used to do it. No one’s going to care how you used to do something or want to hear why you think your old way might work better.Don’t expect any of your prior time to help you. Be happy if it does, but don’t go into it thinking it will. Overconfidence will hurt you in many ways. An instructor who senses you think you know it all is going to eat you alive. It may also lead you to think you may not need to spend much time preparing for your training events.
Chairfly – Chairfly – Chairfly!! Repetition is your friend (whether you’re a high time civilian or zero time newbie). You absolutely have to prepare before every mission. You cannot show up for a training flight and expect to “wing it”. Some guys in my class sat in a chair with a “stick” (plunger or some other simulated control stick) and flew every mission through. Others just mentally walked through the flight – whatever works for you. You must rehearse checklists, starting procedures, radio calls, taxiing, takeoffs, cruise, aerobatics, instrument procedures, formation, emergency procedures – everything. The less time you spend during an actual flight struggling to figure out what comes next, what you need to say on the radio, how you’re going to handle a problem or even a routine event will mean you’ll have more mental capacity (i.e. “brain cells”) available to deal with the unexpected or just be thinking way ahead of the aircraft.
One final thing – remember to have fun. If you approach every ride in UPT (whether it’s a check ride or not) as an opportunity to fail, you’ll be miserable. Be prepared, be confident, ready to learn and look at each flight as a chance to excel, have fun and show them your stuff. UPT can be a really great time if you don’t spend every minute worrying about busting a ride. Work hard, play hard and live/eat/breathe flying for the year you’re there. Your one and only job is to learn flying and get really good at it. There won’t be many times in your USAF/Guard career when your only responsibility is flying.
If you end up getting selected, enjoy it. Good Luck.
A much more likely issue could be that most of the aircraft young, civilian pilots acquire significant flying time in are slow, simple light aircraft (Cessna 152, 172, Piper warrior, etc.) Those aircraft have approach speeds that aren’t much faster than a car on the highway and cruise at slightly over 100 knots. From my experience, pilots spend much of their training learning to anticipate, react quickly and “stay ahead” of the aircraft. If all of that training prior to UPT has occurred in the ~100 knot regime, then their “mental clocks” get calibrated to reacting and planning at that speed. I think for some “high timers” it can be very difficult to re-calibrate their mental clocks to the higher speeds used by the trainers in UPT. A zero time guy in UPT doesn’t know anything different and just adapts to the speeds.
For pilots taking the fighter track, they are into the T-38C after only 6 months of UPT. You fly that aircraft at 300 KIAS around the VFR pattern, on the initial portion of high altitude instrument penetrations, on radar vectors, basically all the time until you put your gear down. Some guys are never able to get ahead of that aircraft.The only personal experience I have with this is the reverse situation. After 10 years of flying fighters, I went to get my ATP in a Seminole twin. I was completely out of my element with no twin recip time and less than 30 hours of single recip time more than 10 year earlier. The only thing that allowed me to be successful was the fact that the darn plane was so slow. I was so used to thinking and planning instrument approaches at 300+ knots, that it was impossible for me to get behind. My mental clock was working 3 times faster than I needed it to in a Seminole. I can see how it would be very difficult in the opposite situation.
I’m sure many high time pilots get comfortable in the aircraft they have accumulated their time in up to that point. With 1200 hours, I doubt you have to spend hours “chair-flying” before you go up. I realize every civilian student and instructor could be different and not all are like I describe – but many are. Study and training habits built in civilian flying may not work well in UPT. Many civilian student pilots go up with their instructor and are told what to do. They have little pre-mission planning and the instruction is fed to them piece by piece by their instructor as the training flight progresses. They spend their training flight reacting to their instructor, to their aircraft and the flying environment.
UPT students are taught to anticipate as much as possible from the start. It’s not possible to spend an entire training sortie reacting – you will get behind the jet quickly. UPT students go through a pre-mission brief with their instructor which involves detailed instruction on each event. Once they take off, the students are expected to orchestrate the mission with minimal inputs from the instructor. They talk on the radio, stay within the confines of the MOA, fly the planned profile, events and maneuvers using entry parameters, altitudes, speeds, power settings while the instructor monitors and offers instruction if necessary. It’s a challenging approach and it requires hours of study, chair flying and repetition to get really good at it.
Advice:
Keep the details of your previous flying experience to yourself. If you’re asked about it, keep it short and to the point. Don’t advertise you have lots of civilian time to your classmates. If it ends up helping you, great, you just look like an above average student. Why you’re above average isn’t really that important.
Try to learn everything the way they want you to learn it in UPT. Avoid questions about things just because they seem to be done differently from the way you used to do it. No one’s going to care how you used to do something or want to hear why you think your old way might work better.Don’t expect any of your prior time to help you. Be happy if it does, but don’t go into it thinking it will. Overconfidence will hurt you in many ways. An instructor who senses you think you know it all is going to eat you alive. It may also lead you to think you may not need to spend much time preparing for your training events.
Chairfly – Chairfly – Chairfly!! Repetition is your friend (whether you’re a high time civilian or zero time newbie). You absolutely have to prepare before every mission. You cannot show up for a training flight and expect to “wing it”. Some guys in my class sat in a chair with a “stick” (plunger or some other simulated control stick) and flew every mission through. Others just mentally walked through the flight – whatever works for you. You must rehearse checklists, starting procedures, radio calls, taxiing, takeoffs, cruise, aerobatics, instrument procedures, formation, emergency procedures – everything. The less time you spend during an actual flight struggling to figure out what comes next, what you need to say on the radio, how you’re going to handle a problem or even a routine event will mean you’ll have more mental capacity (i.e. “brain cells”) available to deal with the unexpected or just be thinking way ahead of the aircraft.
One final thing – remember to have fun. If you approach every ride in UPT (whether it’s a check ride or not) as an opportunity to fail, you’ll be miserable. Be prepared, be confident, ready to learn and look at each flight as a chance to excel, have fun and show them your stuff. UPT can be a really great time if you don’t spend every minute worrying about busting a ride. Work hard, play hard and live/eat/breathe flying for the year you’re there. Your one and only job is to learn flying and get really good at it. There won’t be many times in your USAF/Guard career when your only responsibility is flying.
If you end up getting selected, enjoy it. Good Luck.
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