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Drone Pilots Gaining Influence in the USAF

Old 03-03-2010, 08:24 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
You get incentive pay because the job you do is dangerous. They get incentive pay for the same reasons. You get more than they do because of your education, training, rank, responsibility, etc.... The same reasons that the old grizzled Major (who has made all the required gates) gets more than the brand new 2ndLt. USMCFLYR
I'm guessing here, but I think what he was saying is that a guy with the exact same experience gets the same flight pay if he's operating Talon II's in the weeds or if he's sitting at a desk in TACC. It's gate monthes, not necessarily what you're doing.

There's no right answer for flight pay for UAV operators. Selfish take, if they'll dive on that gernade (taking the assignment so I don't have to) I'm happy for them to have the same flight pay. Bigger picture, there is no way you could have pilots and UAV babies doing the exact same job with one set getting flight pay and the other not. Biggest picture, when I sit back and imagine what they must look at, day after day, with awesome optics, I got to feel they must pay a high mental price for their duty. Read plenty of stories about PTSD rates amongst them to believe it's real.

Just my opinion, I'm totally ok with remote drivers in NV, NM, or whereever getting the same flight pay I do.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:00 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
......You get incentive pay because the job you do is dangerous. They get incentive pay for the same reasons. You get more than they do because of your education, training, rank, responsibility, etc....

USMCFLYR
There is nothing about flight pay that says it is because of the danger of the job - as a matter of fact, the official name is Aviation Career Incentive Pay, not flight pay - you don't have to fly to get it (reference previous mentions of gates, etc). I could not fly again and still get ACIP for the remainder of my career. DOD Instruction defines ACIP as "Additional pay intended to attract and retain officers in a military aviation career." Nothing about danger. ACIP is pay given for a specific skill set. Do medical personnel get their annual medical pay because their job is dangerous?

FWIW, UAV operators do not get any pay related to danger unless they physically go into theater.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:02 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Hacker15e View Post
So, is this why there haven't been any follow on classes after that test class?

There have been no more Beta classes because the operational squadrons can't absorb that much of a drain on their MQT instructors. But, more classes are to come (sts).
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:06 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
I'm guessing here, but I think what he was saying is that a guy with the exact same experience gets the same flight pay if he's operating Talon II's in the weeds or if he's sitting at a desk in TACC. It's gate monthes, not necessarily what you're doing.

There's no right answer for flight pay for UAV operators. Selfish take, if they'll dive on that gernade (taking the assignment so I don't have to) I'm happy for them to have the same flight pay. Bigger picture, there is no way you could have pilots and UAV babies doing the exact same job with one set getting flight pay and the other not. Biggest picture, when I sit back and imagine what they must look at, day after day, with awesome optics, I got to feel they must pay a high mental price for their duty. Read plenty of stories about PTSD rates amongst them to believe it's real.

Just my opinion, I'm totally ok with remote drivers in NV, NM, or whereever getting the same flight pay I do.
Exactly - I said the same thing in a couple of posts above.
As for the "flight pay" - I respect your opinion, but I have the opposite opinion.

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Old 03-03-2010, 09:09 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by LivingInMEM View Post
There is nothing about flight pay that says it is because of the danger of the job - as a matter of fact, the official name is Aviation Career Incentive Pay, not flight pay - you don't have to fly to get it (reference previous mentions of gates, etc). I could not fly again and still get ACIP for the remainder of my career. DOD Instruction defines ACIP as "Additional pay intended to attract and retain officers in a military aviation career." Nothing about danger. ACIP is pay given for a specific skill set. Do medical personnel get their annual medical pay because their job is dangerous?

FWIW, UAV operators do not get any pay related to danger unless they physically go into theater.
LIM -

I laid out all the different types of pay in post #17. There is actually no pay called "flight pay" as you probably know. There IS a type of pay for hazardous duty - I'm sure that you know that too.

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Old 03-04-2010, 02:40 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
Hi!

It is this fiscal year's group of new pilots.

Less than 1/2 are going to start UPT, while more than 1/2 are starting UPT-RPV (or whatever they are now calling the UAV training program).

I read that as a post, I think from an AF press release. Can't remember which message board. Also read that the gov't is planning on tripling the number of drones they are flying.

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No, sorry...but that is just not correct.

There is not a RPV UPT program that is churning out more students than UPT.

There was a single test class (the 'Beta' class) back in 2009, which is what is described in LivingInMEM's post here: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...tml#post771512

The only thing related to this was a statement by the USAF that, in 2009, that was the first year that they were going to purchase more unmanned aircraft than manned aircraft.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:17 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
It isn't about whether your life is more valuable than theirs - and I'm sure NO ONE insinuated that. You get incentive pay because the job you do is dangerous. They get incentive pay for the same reasons. You get more than they do because of your education, training, rank, responsibility, etc.... The same reasons that the old grizzled Major (who has made all the required gates) gets more than the brand new 2ndLt. If you want to call this skill set and longevity - than it just just a difference in wording that we are talking about; I'm pretty sure we are saying the same thing here.
No - in my opinion the UAV flyers should not get the same pay without taking the same risks. Also - all of those things that you don't care about like flight suits, patches, WINGS, and such - those WERE/ARE suppose to be honors bestowed upon the werer for doing things and putting themselves at risk above and beyond. I suppose you think just anybody ought to get to wear a Purple Heart or Silver Cross too? How about a Special Forces Beret or a Trident? No....we aren't all the same. Those who made it through UAV training don't deserve to wear the same set of wings that YOU are wearing. They deserve their OWN set of wings (which it sounds like they got), and I don't deserve to wear them or their patches or anything else bestowed upon that community until I complete their training program.
I really hope you come to understand that.

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I disagree that ACIP is any kind of danger pay. I also disagree with your assessment concerning flight suits and patches. I'll give you the wings - they are "merit badges" of a kind. Huge stretch on your part to imply that, b/c I don't care who gets to wears flight suits or leather jackets, I think everyone should get purple hearts and/or other medals. That's just a straw man to knock down.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:41 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Deuce130 View Post
I disagree that ACIP is any kind of danger pay. I also disagree with your assessment concerning flight suits and patches. I'll give you the wings - they are "merit badges" of a kind. Huge stretch on your part to imply that, b/c I don't care who gets to wears flight suits or leather jackets, I think everyone should get purple hearts and/or other medals. That's just a straw man to knock down.
In post #17 I posted the link that describes all the different types of incentive pay. What ACIP became after the Act of 1974 might be defined differently now, but I believe it came about for that very reason.
The medals might be an extreme - how about this concerning flight suits or patches. What would you think of someone going around wearing a doctor's smock or a Admin Officer wearing a patch given to a graduate of a tactical airlift course - or a pilot wearing a Fighter Weapons School/TopGun patch if they haven't been trhough the course? Those items are given because you accomplished something. Giving them to everyone is wrong IMO. It is the extreme end of the spectrum with the medals, but we are talking principles here aren't we?
Straw man I call it a difference of opinion. As I said before Deuce - it is OK if we disagree on this. I'm giving you MY opinion - not trying to change your mind. I'm sorry if you took it that way. Knock down my "straw man" all you want.

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Old 03-04-2010, 10:46 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Fourgoslot View Post
Space and missile geeks are now given "wings" and walk around in flight suits and leather jackets, so the term "operator" is pretty much given to anyone with a keyboard these days. I'm actually surprised we haven't given them flight pay yet. At least those flying UAVs are actually pilots...for now.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
Also - all of those things that you don't care about like flight suits ... - those WERE/ARE suppose to be honors bestowed upon the werer for doing things and putting themselves at risk above and beyond.
And here I thought that when I was wearing a flight suit it was a functional uniform item and a matter of safety in the cockpit.

If you really want to talk about the dismantling of a proud military career field, look at missilers. They had their blue suits replaced by a less functional (for them) green nomex one, and their missile badges were turned into some silly "space wings" (though they eventually reconsidered the badge for the guys who actually sit in the bunkers).
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:58 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by CaptFuzz View Post
And here I thought that when I was wearing a flight suit it was a functional uniform item and a matter of safety in the cockpit.

If you really want to talk about the dismantling of a proud military career field, look at missilers. They had their blue suits replaced by a less functional (for them) green nomex one, and their missile badges were turned into some silly "space wings" (though they eventually reconsidered the badge for the guys who actually sit in the bunkers).
So true CaptFuzz. It is funny that you called it a uniform item. Wasn't it the air force that wanted to put pleats into it or something like that quite a few years ago in order to make it into a uniform item? I remember being told it was a specifically a piece of flight gear and NOT a uniform - therefore all of those rules about where we could and could not wear them - sometimes even having change into a flight suit AFTER we had arrived at the squadron and change back back prior to going home! Or stories (second person) of having to change into the flight suit before your flight and then changing back out and into your *uniform* after your flight. Jeez!

We've gotten a litle off track with the thread and I am much to blame for that. Sorry to the OP.

I am watching an episode of Modern Marvels on Discovery Channel. This one is one Extreme Flying Machines. They started with the fighters, moved on to the bombers and now are focusing on RPV. There was one featured called the BATCAM (weighing 0.8 lbs). They also had one called an Orthicopter (I think). They even had one developed that fluttered like a small bird that weighed 0.3 lbs - but only had 3 minutes of fuel on board. There is no doubt that the technology is rapidly growing (like computers - outdated and slow within months) and more and more applications are apparent.

Oh....not they are showing the DC-10 firefighting aircraft (must be a little old or they would be showing Evergreen's 747 tanker) Back to the show!

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