Most Puckered Instrument Approach
02-07-2011, 08:13 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
That's a good story, too. I've never heard of one airplane having that many generals aboard.
Sounds like a quote from the sci-fi classic, 2001: "My God; it's full of stars!"
When you said 184 TAS: I was in the 747-400 doing an approach into Hong Kong during a typhoon, where we were flying 184 indicated on final....
Riddler, what were you flying when you were coming in on "a half-wing and a prayer?"
Sounds like a quote from the sci-fi classic, 2001: "My God; it's full of stars!"
When you said 184 TAS: I was in the 747-400 doing an approach into Hong Kong during a typhoon, where we were flying 184 indicated on final....
Riddler, what were you flying when you were coming in on "a half-wing and a prayer?"
184 knots indicated is ridiculous. haha
I hate when you have an approach like that, all that energy, you get it down to the runway, and then it wants to float. Good times.
02-08-2011, 04:40 AM
#23
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 133
As a newbie at UAL in 2001, we came to egress day. The instructor asked who in the class had experienced an inflight emergency. Almost everyone raised their hands. Then the instructor asked who had experienced an engine failure...this time mainly the ex-military guys raised their hands. Finally, the instructor asked if anyone had ever ditched an airplane. Unbelivabley, one Navy guy raised his hand. He had been on a crew that ditched a P-3 in the Indian Ocean. We all looked at him and told him he validated egress day.
02-08-2011, 05:19 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Left Seat, Toyota Tacoma
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
Riddler, what were you flying when you were coming in on "a half-wing and a prayer?"
We had plenty of time to pre-brief everything ranging from dumping fuel (once we descended low enough) to flying the approach. Everything was fine until about 10 minutes from top of descent. We started getting a lot of strange issues on the #4 hydraulic system and #4 electrical generator. Then we got a few intermittent pitch trim issues but didn't think much of it because it's connected to #4 hydraulic. Passing our max fuel dump altitude, we started running the checklist and NOTHING happened. It was strange... every possible fuel dump "fail" light or "low press" light was illuminated. About that time, the #4 generator failed and we had some intermittent #4 hydraulic problems... still nothing too incredibly bad, because the #4 HYD was only being run off a backup electrical pump and we lost the #4 generator... so far everything corresponded to the bad engine. As we got closer to the airfield, we got the ATIS and learned that BGR was in the midst of an unexpected snow storm and vis was about 1/4 mile in blowing snow. So we elected to hold and try to figure out *** was going on. About 15 miles from the FAF, we got the Lower Rudder Fail, Right Aileron Fail, and XXXX Spoiler Fail messages. Now I'm starting to think that something much worse could be going on - like a wing fire or something crazy. That's when I figured that we were done troubleshooting and it was time to just fly the approach. It was an ugly approach... full stick and the jet just barely starts to turn, then I try to roll out and I overshoot... 2 dots left at about 2,000 feet.... 1.5 dots right side at about 1,500 feet... 1 dot left at about 1,000 feet, and slowly working back towards centerline and learning how to play out the jet that just doesn't want to turn. Eventually got it to about 1/2 dot or so. Thank God we started seeing the ground at about 500 feet and picked up the runway lights at just under a mile away.
Karma is a *****! That's what I get for talking about 3 engine drift down on the NATS while actually crossing the NATS. I'm just glad that we weren't discussing ditching!
02-08-2011, 07:41 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
P-3 Ditching
I can't remember his name, but I flew T-34Cs with one of the pilots who was in the P-3 ditching---great guy. If I recall, it was a four-engine flameout, and at night!!!
Although, I didn't think it was the Indian Ocean...I thought it was the Arabian Gulf, between Bahrain and Qatar. (Unless this is a different incident).
In the case I know of, the plane was in about 50 feet of water, and I saw pictures where it was lifted out and placed on a barge. Not sure if it ever flew again, but from the pictures, it looked like it could!
Riddler:
Thanks for the story...nice job!
Although, I didn't think it was the Indian Ocean...I thought it was the Arabian Gulf, between Bahrain and Qatar. (Unless this is a different incident).
In the case I know of, the plane was in about 50 feet of water, and I saw pictures where it was lifted out and placed on a barge. Not sure if it ever flew again, but from the pictures, it looked like it could!
Riddler:
Thanks for the story...nice job!
02-08-2011, 07:56 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
The reason we had so many officers was because it was a CAPSTONE mission. Think of it as a giant field trip for 1 stars with a 4 star chaperon. If you want to know more Welcome to CAPSTONE.
184 knots indicated is ridiculous. haha
I hate when you have an approach like that, all that energy, you get it down to the runway, and then it wants to float. Good times.
184 knots indicated is ridiculous. haha
I hate when you have an approach like that, all that energy, you get it down to the runway, and then it wants to float. Good times.
It was a UAL 747-400 from NRT to HKG, must have been 2002. Four-hour flight, and weather was crap. Taiwan was VFR, but mainland China (Communist) won't allow using free-Taiwan as an alternate.....so our alternate is NRT, where we launched from!!
As such, our bingo fuel is (I still remember this) 100,000lbs.
Airplane is full, so we are up against maximum weights.We get to 50 or 60 miles from HKG and they put us in holding. I'm watching the gas; I tell the boss "We're a bit under bingo." About then, they give us clearance for the approach. OK, we'll push it.
It wasn't looking bad until about 4000 ft on final. Then, good God: I swear, the windshield looked like a fire truck was outside the airplane, and they were spraying us with a 4-inch hose. I'd never used windshield wipers on high before...we were...and it wasn't enough! It is, to this day, the heaviest rainfall I have ever seen.
Because we were right at max structural landing weight, and max brake-performance (due to the 100k fuel weight), approach speed (if memory serves) was around 155-160 kts. United allows a max of 20 kts added for approach (gust factor, etc).
We're on final, and the speed-trend arrow is going + and -30 kts of Vref. Capt is flying; I want to say something, but I know I'm not supposed to.
Finally, I say "Boss, I'd feel a lot better if we added 10 knots..."
"Me too!! Give me ten more!!" That's how we got 184 indicated.
We get the runway in sight around 3 miles out. Good God---you can see the runway lights, but they are nothing but a blur due to the rain and unbelievable precip on the windshield. (It's night).
He makes one of the most unbelievably smooth landings possible under the circumstances. It is obvious, even through the shimmering windshield, that the runway is under about two inches of water.
I start my callouts: "Spoilers up; four in reverse. You are drifting left. You are drifting left. YOU ARE DRIFTING LEFT (with some urgency).
Him: "I know; I know!!"
He kills the reverse thrust and brakes to a stop.
As we taxi clear, the F/As are making their announcements, and you can hear the whole cabin cheering.
I thought: if they only knew how scared I was.....(I think the Boss too)...
02-08-2011, 09:28 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: I pilot
Posts: 2,049
Originally Posted by Riddler
Heavy weight hand flown CAT II ILS with a lost hydraulic system, fuel dump inop, pitch trim inop, an inop aileron, 1/2 normal rudder authority, and 1/2 normal spoilers. Crosswinds were out of limits due to our flight control issues. Seriously... I have never seen so many warning lights and error messages prior to this approach. Copilot asked me what checklist I wanted to run first, and my answer was "Gear down, before landing checklist." I wasn't about to wait for something else to break.
02-09-2011, 04:20 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
KC10:
It was a UAL 747-400 from NRT to HKG, must have been 2002. Four-hour flight, and weather was crap. Taiwan was VFR, but mainland China (Communist) won't allow using free-Taiwan as an alternate.....so our alternate is NRT, where we launched from!!
As such, our bingo fuel is (I still remember this) 100,000lbs. Airplane is full, so we are up against maximum weights.
We get to 50 or 60 miles from HKG and they put us in holding. I'm watching the gas; I tell the boss "We're a bit under bingo." About then, they give us clearance for the approach. OK, we'll push it.
It wasn't looking bad until about 4000 ft on final. Then, good God: I swear, the windshield looked like a fire truck was outside the airplane, and they were spraying us with a 4-inch hose. I'd never used windshield wipers on high before...we were...and it wasn't enough! It is, to this day, the heaviest rainfall I have ever seen.
Because we were right at max structural landing weight, and max brake-performance (due to the 100k fuel weight), approach speed (if memory serves) was around 155-160 kts. United allows a max of 20 kts added for approach (gust factor, etc).
We're on final, and the speed-trend arrow is going + and -30 kts of Vref. Capt is flying; I want to say something, but I know I'm not supposed to.
Finally, I say "Boss, I'd feel a lot better if we added 10 knots..."
"Me too!! Give me ten more!!" That's how we got 184 indicated.
We get the runway in sight around 3 miles out. Good God---you can see the runway lights, but they are nothing but a blur due to the rain and unbelievable precip on the windshield. (It's night).
He makes one of the most unbelievably smooth landings possible under the circumstances. It is obvious, even through the shimmering windshield, that the runway is under about two inches of water.
I start my callouts: "Spoilers up; four in reverse. You are drifting left. You are drifting left. YOU ARE DRIFTING LEFT (with some urgency).
Him: "I know; I know!!"
He kills the reverse thrust and brakes to a stop.
As we taxi clear, the F/As are making their announcements, and you can hear the whole cabin cheering.
I thought: if they only knew how scared I was.....(I think the Boss too)...
It was a UAL 747-400 from NRT to HKG, must have been 2002. Four-hour flight, and weather was crap. Taiwan was VFR, but mainland China (Communist) won't allow using free-Taiwan as an alternate.....so our alternate is NRT, where we launched from!!
As such, our bingo fuel is (I still remember this) 100,000lbs.
Airplane is full, so we are up against maximum weights.We get to 50 or 60 miles from HKG and they put us in holding. I'm watching the gas; I tell the boss "We're a bit under bingo." About then, they give us clearance for the approach. OK, we'll push it.
It wasn't looking bad until about 4000 ft on final. Then, good God: I swear, the windshield looked like a fire truck was outside the airplane, and they were spraying us with a 4-inch hose. I'd never used windshield wipers on high before...we were...and it wasn't enough! It is, to this day, the heaviest rainfall I have ever seen.
Because we were right at max structural landing weight, and max brake-performance (due to the 100k fuel weight), approach speed (if memory serves) was around 155-160 kts. United allows a max of 20 kts added for approach (gust factor, etc).
We're on final, and the speed-trend arrow is going + and -30 kts of Vref. Capt is flying; I want to say something, but I know I'm not supposed to.
Finally, I say "Boss, I'd feel a lot better if we added 10 knots..."
"Me too!! Give me ten more!!" That's how we got 184 indicated.
We get the runway in sight around 3 miles out. Good God---you can see the runway lights, but they are nothing but a blur due to the rain and unbelievable precip on the windshield. (It's night).
He makes one of the most unbelievably smooth landings possible under the circumstances. It is obvious, even through the shimmering windshield, that the runway is under about two inches of water.
I start my callouts: "Spoilers up; four in reverse. You are drifting left. You are drifting left. YOU ARE DRIFTING LEFT (with some urgency).
Him: "I know; I know!!"
He kills the reverse thrust and brakes to a stop.
As we taxi clear, the F/As are making their announcements, and you can hear the whole cabin cheering.
I thought: if they only knew how scared I was.....(I think the Boss too)...
Not to get into force diagram lessons as you already know the consequences, when I was an instructor in the KC-10, one of the big lessons I taught was how reverse thrust in a crosswind and slippery runway is not your friend. In the sim, I saw several guys go off the runway who kept the TRs deployed and after they departed the runway using max crosswind controls wondered what happened.
Keep these stories coming, they're great.
02-10-2011, 06:29 AM
#30
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Rest of the Story
Originally Posted by Riddler
C-17. The funny thing is that the whole thing started about 300 miles east of Gander (we originally departed from there also), when a copilot asked me if I'd go through his training "coloring book." He needed to review 3 engine drift down procedures, and no kidding about 1 minute into our discussion we started getting compressor stalls on #4. About 5 minutes later, we were in the middle of a 3 engine drift down and emergency turn around on the NATs. We couldn't get back into Gander due to freezing rain, and everything seemed to be OK so we headed back to Bangor where there was enroute MX available and the WX was forecast to be good.
We had plenty of time to pre-brief everything ranging from dumping fuel (once we descended low enough) to flying the approach. Everything was fine until about 10 minutes from top of descent. We started getting a lot of strange issues on the #4 hydraulic system and #4 electrical generator. Then we got a few intermittent pitch trim issues but didn't think much of it because it's connected to #4 hydraulic. Passing our max fuel dump altitude, we started running the checklist and NOTHING happened. It was strange... every possible fuel dump "fail" light or "low press" light was illuminated. About that time, the #4 generator failed and we had some intermittent #4 hydraulic problems... still nothing too incredibly bad, because the #4 HYD was only being run off a backup electrical pump and we lost the #4 generator... so far everything corresponded to the bad engine. As we got closer to the airfield, we got the ATIS and learned that BGR was in the midst of an unexpected snow storm and vis was about 1/4 mile in blowing snow. So we elected to hold and try to figure out *** was going on. About 15 miles from the FAF, we got the Lower Rudder Fail, Right Aileron Fail, and XXXX Spoiler Fail messages. Now I'm starting to think that something much worse could be going on - like a wing fire or something crazy. That's when I figured that we were done troubleshooting and it was time to just fly the approach. It was an ugly approach... full stick and the jet just barely starts to turn, then I try to roll out and I overshoot... 2 dots left at about 2,000 feet.... 1.5 dots right side at about 1,500 feet... 1 dot left at about 1,000 feet, and slowly working back towards centerline and learning how to play out the jet that just doesn't want to turn. Eventually got it to about 1/2 dot or so. Thank God we started seeing the ground at about 500 feet and picked up the runway lights at just under a mile away.
Karma is a *****! That's what I get for talking about 3 engine drift down on the NATS while actually crossing the NATS. I'm just glad that we weren't discussing ditching!
We had plenty of time to pre-brief everything ranging from dumping fuel (once we descended low enough) to flying the approach. Everything was fine until about 10 minutes from top of descent. We started getting a lot of strange issues on the #4 hydraulic system and #4 electrical generator. Then we got a few intermittent pitch trim issues but didn't think much of it because it's connected to #4 hydraulic. Passing our max fuel dump altitude, we started running the checklist and NOTHING happened. It was strange... every possible fuel dump "fail" light or "low press" light was illuminated. About that time, the #4 generator failed and we had some intermittent #4 hydraulic problems... still nothing too incredibly bad, because the #4 HYD was only being run off a backup electrical pump and we lost the #4 generator... so far everything corresponded to the bad engine. As we got closer to the airfield, we got the ATIS and learned that BGR was in the midst of an unexpected snow storm and vis was about 1/4 mile in blowing snow. So we elected to hold and try to figure out *** was going on. About 15 miles from the FAF, we got the Lower Rudder Fail, Right Aileron Fail, and XXXX Spoiler Fail messages. Now I'm starting to think that something much worse could be going on - like a wing fire or something crazy. That's when I figured that we were done troubleshooting and it was time to just fly the approach. It was an ugly approach... full stick and the jet just barely starts to turn, then I try to roll out and I overshoot... 2 dots left at about 2,000 feet.... 1.5 dots right side at about 1,500 feet... 1 dot left at about 1,000 feet, and slowly working back towards centerline and learning how to play out the jet that just doesn't want to turn. Eventually got it to about 1/2 dot or so. Thank God we started seeing the ground at about 500 feet and picked up the runway lights at just under a mile away.
Karma is a *****! That's what I get for talking about 3 engine drift down on the NATS while actually crossing the NATS. I'm just glad that we weren't discussing ditching!
That is a hairy story, and you obviously had your hands full. I'm curious: did maintenance ever tell you what was wrong? From my Phantom days, unrelated malfs like that says "Major Bleed Air Leak," which caused wires to melt together, hydraulic lines to burn through, etc.
Just curious how a relatively new wonder-plane like the C-17 could have that serious of a situation.
(And, I'd bet you had a few butterflies the next time you started to go feet-wet....I would!)
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