thegoblin

Well the Marine Corps disagrees...

UH-1Y, AH-1Z cuts could help pay for F-35 - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times

“The UH-1Y and AH-1Z programs are exceedingly successful,” one senior defense official said. But “the [Department of the Navy] is looking to make them bill payers once again to help pay for [F-35B Joint Strike Fighter] overrun costs.”

Makes perfect sense...

Grumble

Airborne artillery yes, quick response CAS, No. Give the bad guys a vote with MANPADS and it becomes hell no.

I hate to admit it but the best tool in the COIN fight is Reapers.

However if you want in close death and destruction, call the Hawgs.

727C47

Bring back the Able Dog, hang a turboprop up front,keep the tailwheel !!!

USMCFLYR

Can I get back in if they do???
I'll have some good TP time by then!

USMCFLYR

LowSlowT2

A-1E Skyraider.

...or an OV-10...I think Boeing said they could have 'em back in production in no time!

rickair7777

I think it's a reasonable assertion that without a significant unique capability (ie maritime expeditionary) the corps days might be numbered, at least as we know it.

I don't think a VSTOL fighter is a make-or-break feature of a MEU, but it does have some utility. Also it looks cool as hell in action, so I do suspect there is some pride/ego action going on too.

Things are not looking good for the F-35B, so if you think the image (and possibly future) of the corps is enhanced by a VSTOL, extra AV8-Bs probably make sense. If you wait for the F-35b to canx, that money is going to be GONE.

BDGERJMN

I'm not saying the MEU isn't enhanced by VSTOL at all, in fact I agree that the MEU and how it operates in total is reliant upon the capability. The utility of that total capability might be in question.

The original article in this post cited aging D's as one of the reasons this decision was made. I don't think you'll find a single anchor(or double anchor dude for that matter) USMC TACAIR aircrew that will tell you a refurbished UK Harrier is going to do what a full up D(or F) can do and has been doing in today's battlespace. That said the Harriers have done good work recently in Libya and other not so desirable places but it's not something that a UDP squadron couldn't have done in my best guess.

hossfly96

Have anyone of you ever asked a ground pounder what he want's flying overhead when he is on foot in the Korengal Valley? In my job as an attack aviator in the army, not only do I get to fly over these brave souls I get to live with them when they are on the FOB. They know what works and what doesn't, and they won't BS you when there is a better way to fight or a better system to get the job done. Technology is always a great tool in warfare, especially when it saves lives or lets you find the enemy before he finds you. But in the assymetric fight when it comes time to start killing from the air, often times our soldiers and Marines are within 50 to 100 meters of each other. A platform at 10,000 or 20,000 feet ain't gonna get the job done. I fly Apaches, and though it is a great helicopter for the job, sometimes it's weapon systems and sensors are not that good in the close in fight either. If you talked to some infantry dudes that had to fight it out door to door in Ramadi a couple of years ago you will find out that their best asset was an OH-58D with the copilot killing bad guys shooting his M4 out the door while the pilot flew below the roof tops.

Now I realized my opinion is biased because of my airframe, but as a student of military history and having now spent a third of my 12 year career in a combat zone, I feel qualified to speak on this topic. I normally just watch these forums every so often to keep tabs on what's going on in aviation outside my world, but this topic touched a nerve. Hell, I would let the army keep my flight pay if they bought A1's or Bronco's. Those are some really cool airplanes. They wouldn't have to pay me at all if we had A10's.

Now I do realize that rotary wing CCA alone is not the total answer. It's various systems working together to get the job done. But as I said before, in the assymetic fight when it's time to deliver ordnance by air, the situation usually has already deteriorated to the point where the platform has to be damn close to kill bad guys and avoid fraticide. The bad guys know that if they close the distance before starting the fight that it's just between them and the 18 year old kid with an M4 and a lot of our high technology systems won't be able to help them out.

Rant/preaching session on pause...I look forward to the fixed wing thoughts on what I just wrote.

Have a great day.

UAL T38 Phlyer

Hoss:

I flew OV-10s from 1984-1987. (Air Force A-models).

A very rugged airplane, but not a good airplane for Afghanistan or Iraq. High-altitude performance is not great, and absolutely abysmal on one engine. Roll rate is poor for a tactical airplane....very high stick forces. Oh, I forgot to mention: it has NO air conditioning at all---just an outside air-vent!!

In hot environments, performance is not good either.

The OV-10D had better performance (44% more power), but most of them had the FLIR-turret...which was so heavy, it had the same performance as the A-model.

The airplane did not fare well in Desert Storm with the Marines.

Now, a turbine-powered A-1, or (a suggestion I made in a post a year ago) a turbine-powered P-82 Twin Mustang? Speed, loiter, load, range---everything you need. Oh, yeah!!

Grumble

Every troop I've ever talked to is partial to whatever platform has saved his ass. They want whatever is available now, when they need it. The only relief I had supporting a TIC way up northeast of BAF one night was a section of Apaches. Took them over two hours to get there, we ran every tanker dry trying to maintain cover hoping they would hurry the hell up. That night, those kids didn't care what it was overhead. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you sit next to these guys in the DFAC we're anymore removed from the fight, or take it any less personal while on the ship in the NAS or NAG (or USAF guys at BAF, KAF, Balad, etc). I can give names of individuals who have supported troops inside of 50m of the enemy, effectively, from the cockpit of an F-18. It wasn't at 10K' either.

There is no end all be all platform, and it's largely dependent on the main in said platform.