One casuality of the budget cuts - Flyovers!
03-02-2013, 07:33 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Common sense should be somewhat universal.
They are not any more expensive than if they took the same budgeted flight hours and flew them somewhere else. But since they could easily lead a casual observer to assume it's a waste off money, it only makes sense to stop for the time being.
Self-aggrandizing? Well it is a marketing effort, so maybe if you twist some adverbs around you could paint it is a self-aggrandizing.
The "MIL" we are talking about (individual airplanes, operators, and squadrons are not part of the MIC.
The MIC is certainly a legit concern, and requires constant vigilance to restrain. But the MIC is made up of corporations and political leaders (maybe a tiny handful of very senior military officers are peripherally involved). Remember, the military leaders who actually make large-scale funding decisions are elected or appointed civilians. That major or captain doing the flyover wasn't the guy who contracted with Lock-Mart to provide his airplane.
From the military perspective, a stadium full of 100,000 people is a prime opportunity to get some positive exposure towards recruiting. I doubt the corporation benefits very much...the flyover is not the reason all those people bought tickets. The military is taking advantage of an opportunity to reach out to a big crowd (provided by the corporation), not vice versa. Another example: Movies. When the DoD allows it's hardware to participate in movie making 1) The movie has to have recruiting value and 2) the film-maker pays the cost...all of it.
Like we keep saying, flyover money is not "extra" money...it's going to be spent on flight hours anyway. IMO it would be worth the cost of the flight time just for the recruiting benefit.
Honestly, you have a seriously warped perspective about the realities of government, the military, and finance. I'm no apologist for what's wrong with the system, but your attitudes border on tin-foil hat conspiracy theories. Your problem here is that you're debating with a bunch of folks who have years (decades) of experience and perspective on these issues from both from the inside and outside. There are probably forums elsewhere where your highly simplified outlook would be welcomed with open arms. This forum is not kindergarten (maybe junior high school, but not kindergarten).
Honestly, you have a seriously warped perspective about the realities of government, the military, and finance. I'm no apologist for what's wrong with the system, but your attitudes border on tin-foil hat conspiracy theories. Your problem here is that you're debating with a bunch of folks who have years (decades) of experience and perspective on these issues from both from the inside and outside. There are probably forums elsewhere where your highly simplified outlook would be welcomed with open arms. This forum is not kindergarten (maybe junior high school, but not kindergarten).
it's like trying to convince a Saudi man that woman is equal...
03-02-2013, 07:51 AM
#42
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,289
Originally Posted by Snarge
Translation... people should think like me. and if they don't they don't have common sense.
we value other things more, but I digress....
what is marketing? Nothing but convincing people to vote, buy or choose something they normally would not.... also called propaganda..... but I digress...
That is laughable... are you going to start talking Honor, Duty, Country now?
Sorry, weren't you advocating common sense? What constant vigilance? If soldiers have duty, honor country then should not the corporations that profit from the killing, rape and suicides have duty, honor country too? Or are they a special class that gets to lobby the govt to defund Veteran support programs so they can get richer?
maybe if the MIL suicides weren't an issue, and since the economy doesn't offer livable jobs, the MIL wouldn't have to come to schools to indoctrinate and use flyovers to 'market' joining the empire. But you gotta lie and sell somehow...
no... I just have different values. People on this forum, this MIL forum, readily accept violence, rape, killing, invasion, occupying, etc.. as normal and acceptable.... oh, they will justify that war is peace, and it's all defense...... it's like trying to convince a Saudi man that woman is equal...
we value other things more, but I digress....
what is marketing? Nothing but convincing people to vote, buy or choose something they normally would not.... also called propaganda..... but I digress...
That is laughable... are you going to start talking Honor, Duty, Country now?
Sorry, weren't you advocating common sense? What constant vigilance? If soldiers have duty, honor country then should not the corporations that profit from the killing, rape and suicides have duty, honor country too? Or are they a special class that gets to lobby the govt to defund Veteran support programs so they can get richer?
maybe if the MIL suicides weren't an issue, and since the economy doesn't offer livable jobs, the MIL wouldn't have to come to schools to indoctrinate and use flyovers to 'market' joining the empire. But you gotta lie and sell somehow...
no... I just have different values. People on this forum, this MIL forum, readily accept violence, rape, killing, invasion, occupying, etc.. as normal and acceptable.... oh, they will justify that war is peace, and it's all defense......
it's like trying to convince a Saudi man that woman is equal...You are so far afield here that you're not going to be able to hold a civil or productive conversation with most of the folks who visit the mil forum. It's time for you to voluntarily take your opinions elsewhere. This forum is really about military aviation and military life, which have nothing to do with you whatsoever...you're concerned with much, much larger issues. Take a voluntary (and permanent) sabbatical from the mil forum or you're going to take a permanent break from APC.
03-02-2013, 07:56 AM
#43
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Snarge, I can sense your rage and fully understand it.
I don't want you to think like me or anyone else.
The real problem you have is that you don't like your pocket being picked for things you don't like. Me too.
Perhaps a reduction in overall pocket picking might make us all happy, can't we just all get along?
I don't want you to think like me or anyone else.
The real problem you have is that you don't like your pocket being picked for things you don't like. Me too.
Perhaps a reduction in overall pocket picking might make us all happy, can't we just all get along?
03-03-2013, 07:03 PM
#44
Get me outta here...
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Boeing right seat
Posts: 1,541
Originally Posted by Moby Dick
Flight demo teams should have been abandoned after the accident where the 4 Tbirds were killed practicing in the desert.
Rick, would you please just permanently ban Snarge-the-troll?
03-03-2013, 07:27 PM
#45
Slowing to holding speed
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: middle seat
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Snarge
Al-Queda has tactical jets?
Snarge's rants make more sense now, he just doesn't agree with military aviation in general. Puts the rest of his comments in perspective.
03-04-2013, 02:12 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: A-10
Posts: 142
I just finished the Heritage Conference at DM and the season is CNX....for now. Since I've been doing this for a wile I may be able to clear a few things up. The hours do come from the SQ's but on every flight to and from the shows I and my wingman are logging RAP sorties with low levels, BFM, FRA's not to mention Instrument check rides. I'm full up CMR but I go away for some weekends. When we get to the show, our fuel, rooms, food ect is paid for. The only cost to the AF is my TDY pay. When you look at the big picture, what we as a military get out of flyovers and air shows is nothing when you look at how strong of a recruiting tool this is. Not to mention, the public absolutely loves to see these aircraft fly. I hope this season isn't a total wash but when it comes to military readiness I want the troops on the ground to get what they need before we continue with air shows. Not to mention, we need to continue to give billions to other countries for their military while we suffer.
03-04-2013, 03:01 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Walmart Greeter
Posts: 694
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
I just finished the Heritage Conference at DM and the season is CNX....for now. Since I've been doing this for a wile I may be able to clear a few things up. The hours do come from the SQ's but on every flight to and from the shows I and my wingman are logging RAP sorties with low levels, BFM, FRA's not to mention Instrument check rides. I'm full up CMR but I go away for some weekends. When we get to the show, our fuel, rooms, food ect is paid for. The only cost to the AF is my TDY pay. When you look at the big picture, what we as a military get out of flyovers and air shows is nothing when you look at how strong of a recruiting tool this is. Not to mention, the public absolutely loves to see these aircraft fly. I hope this season isn't a total wash but when it comes to military readiness I want the troops on the ground to get what they need before we continue with air shows. Not to mention, we need to continue to give billions to other countries for their military while we suffer.
Are you saying that the ACC Demos were funded by the airshows to include fuel? I get the cars, rooms, food etc...but for the Navy TACDEMO teams the fuel was paid for from our squadron budgets and if needed or the hours were a hinderance on the training hours, would be reallocated by AIRLANT/AIRPAC. Or maybe I misunderstood your post and you were referring to the heritage aircraft being funded by the shows. That is normally the case for the tailhook legacy flights as those budgets were rarely if ever augmented by big Navy.
Thanks for the insight.
bdgerjmn
03-04-2013, 04:22 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Walmart Greeter
Posts: 694
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Except for the fuel we have in our jets when we leave. The fuel, rooms, cars and food is all covered 100% by the show. Ive done several shows with the navy teams and its the same for them.
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