Originally Posted by Deserthusker (Post 3731246)

So this is your first ever post and you have this detail of the “proposal”? Kinda sus

Originally Posted by Deserthusker (Post 3731342)

You do know this was emailed out from the union and is available for anyone to see right? Not sure how you think they are hiding the truth.

Do you see the benefits that proposal has outweighing the concessions it ask for as a good idea?

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3731563)

This far outweight the irrelevant concessions it has asked for. Much better income for the 6 years left of the contract.

The problem is that there's a 20-30 years cultural difference between some that are at the end of their career and do not care if they take the company down with them, they are now lazy, burnt out, ENTITLED, very snowflakish ("oh my goooood! a legal 10hours min-rest, after a 8 hours 4-legs day, aaargh, I am fatigued") and those who are starting their career, need to frontload on their 401K, will have their first children, along with those with kids in school, building their patrimony. The huge difference between the "You need to pay your dues, I suffered here" and the rest is grown past mending. The next vote will show it. Hence why no vote is coming. The pyromaniacs feel the need to keep on feeding their pretorian guard on the MB. Hence why the next elections will be very interesting. I'm sure the company can wait. People are doing the job they are employed and paid for. The only ones losing are pilots, losing potential income, because the much richer, almost retired segment of the group is acting like children.

Since the MB is the place where one can propose idiotic ideas, what about, in order to finally have the union politburo to bring things to a vote, get the echo chamber message board useful idiots to accept anything, we should, maybe, have a two-fold contract: one for the bitter, angry, spoiled, stuck at netjets, Year 18+ guys, with all the spoils of war they are demanding above all, first class tickets on all travel, chef's prepared meal with unlimited meal deviation limit so that they can order the triple-stack fat burger at Applebees, 6 hours duty per day, 4 days on/10 days off, at Delta A350 pay rate. We should really have a special children clause in there. 💩 apologies, thought sattire was on the menu.

Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver (Post 3731640)

IRRELEVANT concessions?

Now we KNOW you are a company stooge if not a management pilot.

If you think allowing OEM pilots to routinely fly OUR airplanes is a good idea you have NO concept of scope or how important it is. There's already been one major scope dodge here that cost at least 50 seniority list pilot jobs. You don't want another.

The fact that management is fighting SO HARD to claw back EFPP should tell you all you need to know about its potential value. The negotiating committee has expressed SOME willingness to give it up IF the rest of the package is SPECTACULAR. If you think the company proposal is spectacular, you prove the most famous axiom widely attributed to P. T. Barnum.

The signing bonus....you're telling me that a guy on property 8 days deserves the same bonus as a guy on the property 8 YEARS? Straight-up vote buying. If you want to START everybody's bonus at $15 K and THEN give everybody $150 per month of service (with NO CAP) then I'm good with it. If not, straight up NO for me.

Will we get Delta money (on an apples to apples, per day of work comparison)? No. Will we get major hard limits on duty time and the like? No. Will we get major improvements in airline policy, hotels, and crew food? No. As some have said "this job will always kinda suck." But it's long past time for them to PAY for the suck and they are completely unwilling to do it.

Originally Posted by tm602 (Post 3731662)

Pay attention to GeeWiz kiddies...especially you starry eyed newbies. Once the thrill of polyester has worn off and you spent that bonus, you'll wish you listened.
Of suspicion is how active that STzBack is when he only joined a month ago....right as things got really heated up.
Its not my fight anymore but I'd sure hate to see the guys I know who are still there have to eat it again.

Originally Posted by AntiPeter (Post 3731718)

Best luck to NJASAP pilots. I'm confident NJA could probably pay more than a legacy and also improve QOL.

Solidarity is an issue as is NjASAP leadership, but the possibility of a great contract exists.

Prove me wrong.
​​​​​
​

Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver (Post 3731640)

IRRELEVANT concessions?

Now we KNOW you are a company stooge if not a management pilot.

If you think allowing OEM pilots to routinely fly OUR airplanes is a good idea you have NO concept of scope or how important it is. There's already been one major scope dodge here that cost at least 50 seniority list pilot jobs. You don't want another.
Could you show, copy it here, the text where it says that we would "allow OEM pilots to routinely fly OUR planes". You're exagerating and interpreting and you know very well. And are you still holding grudge and jealousy on the NJI deal? it's 2023, none of the people hired after 1998 cares.

The fact that management is fighting SO HARD to claw back EFPP should tell you all you need to know about its potential value. The negotiating committee has expressed SOME willingness to give it up IF the rest of the package is SPECTACULAR. If you think the company proposal is spectacular, you prove the most famous axiom widely attributed to P. T. Barnum.
The EFPP is a stupid item, it's so lame it is insultintg this was actually approved in a vote by this group. It has zero value. As far as company not wanting the public/competitors to be going through their accounting, anyone with an ounce of business education understands. As far as the argument that it allows us to see their books (along with the rest of the world) and see how much money they have... I thought we already know how much money they have and that's why we are asking for all these QOL/compensations, "because they can pay". They can pay 1st class tickets, 6 stars hotels, 8-9 hours duty per day, delta pay, also increase ressources in strat ops, pay everyone better than anyone does and still make so much money, they have so much money, even Apple is jealous. :)
The EFPP is a useless item to fight for. Won't survive a vote. not worth losing a 30% increase year one.


The signing bonus....you're telling me that a guy on property 8 days deserves the same bonus as a guy on the property 8 YEARS? Straight-up vote buying. If you want to START everybody's bonus at $15 K and THEN give everybody $150 per month of service (with NO CAP) then I'm good with it. If not, straight up NO for me.

YES, but you're probably part of the same group who was against FDP equivalent for SIC's. Yes, the guy on property for 8 days deserve to be paid as much. Stop trying to create an upper class. YOu're not getting a bonus based on your hardship having suffered hardship like a congolese coltan miner, you're just getting a bonus on a LOA/IBI. Get over yourself.

Will we get Delta money (on an apples to apples, per day of work comparison)? No. Will we get major hard limits on duty time and the like? No. Will we get major improvements in airline policy, hotels, and crew food? No. As some have said "this job will always kinda suck." But it's long past time for them to PAY for the suck and they are completely unwilling to do it.

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3731771)

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3731771)

Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver (Post 3731932)

• Company may use OEM pilots or OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights.

Right there tough guy. Black and white.

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3732354)

Theres a very big difference between that and your post: "If you think allowing OEM pilots to routinely fly OUR airplanes".
Company may use OEM/OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights vs..... allowing OEM pilot to routinely fly OUR airplanes".

Extrapolating mucht?

Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver (Post 3731640)

IRRELEVANT concessions?

Now we KNOW you are a company stooge if not a management pilot.

If you think allowing OEM pilots to routinely fly OUR airplanes is a good idea you have NO concept of scope or how important it is. There's already been one major scope dodge here that cost at least 50 seniority list pilot jobs. You don't want another.

The fact that management is fighting SO HARD to claw back EFPP should tell you all you need to know about its potential value. The negotiating committee has expressed SOME willingness to give it up IF the rest of the package is SPECTACULAR. If you think the company proposal is spectacular, you prove the most famous axiom widely attributed to P. T. Barnum.

The signing bonus....you're telling me that a guy on property 8 days deserves the same bonus as a guy on the property 8 YEARS? Straight-up vote buying. If you want to START everybody's bonus at $15 K and THEN give everybody $150 per month of service (with NO CAP) then I'm good with it. If not, straight up NO for me.

Will we get Delta money (on an apples to apples, per day of work comparison)? No. Will we get major hard limits on duty time and the like? No. Will we get major improvements in airline policy, hotels, and crew food? No. As some have said "this job will always kinda suck." But it's long past time for them to PAY for the suck and they are completely unwilling to do it.

Originally Posted by tm602 (Post 3731662)

Pay attention to GeeWiz kiddies...especially you starry eyed newbies. Once the thrill of polyester has worn off and you spent that bonus, you'll wish you listened.
Of suspicion is how active that STzBack is when he only joined a month ago....right as things got really heated up.
Its not my fight anymore but I'd sure hate to see the guys I know who are still there have to eat it again.

Originally Posted by obiden (Post 3732568)

"Of suspicion" is how you try to discredit anyone posting relevant information simply because they don't live on the forums like you and your buddies.

There is truth to what new-hires observe and their opinion shouldn't be silenced just because they haven't "paid their dues" into your club. It's a joke how people are called "company stooge" or "mgmt pilot!" when they make a valid point that doesn't perfectly align with the latest union chant.

Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver (Post 3731932)

Can you read stzback? I have my doubts.

8.Section 4

• Eliminate NRFO SDP position.

• Modify NRFO related manuals, eliminate certain NRFOs, recategorize remaining NRFOs into

two groups: Group 1 any crewmember off IOE can complete; and Group 2 both

crewmembers must be NRFO trained and have one year in the fleet.

• A crewmember who completes (i.e., the crewmember must remain available for duty for the

entire NRFO assignment) a NRFO assignment will be guaranteed a Flight Hour Credit per LOA

27‐010. If the crewmember flies during the same duty day and his Flight Hours as described

in 27.2(G) for the duty day exceed the Flight Hour credit, then his Flight Hours calculated as

described in 27.2(G) will be used instead of the Flight Hour credit.

• Company may use OEM pilots or OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights.

Right there tough guy. Black and white.

You'll feel a whole lot different about scope when it's YOUR job on the line.

If EFPP is such a nothingburger, WHY does management want it back so bad?

I'm certainly not rich. Own one home. No airplane. No boat. No kids. No grandkids. No intention of working until 67 let alone 70. Totally supported one FDP rate. Totally support one PIC scale and one SIC scale.

You really think I AM BEING SELFISH for rejecting this turd of an offer? That's rich. News flash sport. You're either a management troll, kneepad wearing stooge, or #jetcamp newbie hoping to make a quick score before heading off to a major leaving the people who BUILT THIS PLACE behind.

This deal will never see a vote as-is and your little fantasy of replacing the E-Board is just that: a fantasy.

Originally Posted by obiden (Post 3732568)

"Of suspicion" is how you try to discredit anyone posting relevant information simply because they don't live on the forums like you and your buddies.

There is truth to what new-hires observe and their opinion shouldn't be silenced just because they haven't "paid their dues" into your club. It's a joke how people are called "company stooge" or "mgmt pilot!" when they make a valid point that doesn't perfectly align with the latest union chant.

Originally Posted by tm602 (Post 3733063)

"Live on the forums"....that's rich. I post less than once a week. And its not a matter of paying dues. What it IS, is a matter of having been in professional aviation long enough to have validation in what you have to say. You're like those college professors in their late 20s to early 30s. Know so much about things you have no experience in.

Originally Posted by Cachaco (Post 3732953)

I don’t get the fixation on the NRFO deal. There simply isn’t enough NRFO flights to justify turning down such a pay increase to keep NRFO while it only benefits so little people.

The EFPP deal, don’t know enough to comment. Maybe someone can expand on this? Regardless, this was a major economic offer with no further extension and now left with nothing because Pedro and his gang deemed it was not good enough. Shame on him and his posse.

Originally Posted by obiden (Post 3733086)

I think 15 years Part 135/91 qualifies me.
But go ahead, let's hear what your requirement is for validation...?

Your arrogance displayed here is a disgrace to this profession. If anything, THAT should "invalidate" what YOU have to say.

Originally Posted by Cachaco (Post 3731150)

You guys decide....

Company 11‐9‐2023 Proposal

1. Section 27

• Base Wage Increases:

o 23% on Dec. 21, 2023

o 6% on Dec. 21, 2024

o 4% on Dec. 21, 2025

o 4% on Dec. 21, 2026

o 4% on Dec. 21, 2027

o 4% on Dec. 21, 2028

• Wage Scale adjusted to 14 years for all fleets and ranks.

• Tour‐Based Flight Pay Rate Increases:

o $190 effective DOR

o $200 effective January 1, 2024

o $202 effective January 1, 2025

o $204 effective January 1, 2026

o $206 effective January 1, 2027

o $208 effective January 1, 2028

o $210 effective January 1, 2029

o 2% annual increase each year beginning January 1, 2030

• NFAD Category Additions and Rate Increase:

o NFAD hourly rate of $50.00 increases to $51.00 effective January 1, 2024.

o New Beginning‐of‐Day NFAD category as previously proposed 9‐19‐2023.

o New “Flight Asset Duty 1+ Hour” NFAD category as proposed 10‐5‐2023—applicable

to hours of Flight Asset Duty greater than 1 hour in a duty day and paid at the NFAD

rate multiplied by .33. Subject to following rules:

 If a crewmember is briefed for a Flight Assignment under subsection

28.3(A)(1) or a Travel Duty assignment the crewmember must complete the

Flight Assignment or Travel Duty assignment.

 A crewmember must be available for duty the entire duty period.

o New “Hotel 5+ Hour Reserve Duty” NFAD category as proposed 10‐5‐2023—

applicable to hours of Reserve Duty at hotel greater than 5 hours in a duty day and

paid at the NFAD rate multiplied by .2. Subject to the following rules:

 If a crewmember is briefed for a Flight Assignment under subsection

28.3(A)(1) or a Travel Duty assignment the crewmember must complete the

Flight Assignment or Travel Duty assignment.

 A crewmember must be available for duty the entire duty period.

o Per 27.2(I), when more than one NFAD category is applicable, the crewmember shall

receive the greater of the types—but not more than one type of NFAD for the same

period.

• SDP Compensation as previously proposed to include:

o increased base premium of $20k up to $26k depending on schedule type.

o additional Tour‐Based Flight Pay factor for hours in a tour in excess of 10 Flight

Hours of $50 for CA and $75 for EA‐Do flat fee per check ride of $500 or $750 per check ride when an EA‐D completes a

check on a CA.

2. One Time Compensation Bonus

• Upon ratification, each crewmember to receive a gross payment equal to the greater of the

following two options:

o $15,000.00

o $150.00 per Month of Seniority, capped at $30,000.00.

3. Section 28

• 28.3(A)(1)(a)—all flight duty start times modified to 60 minutes.

• 28.3(A)(1)(b)—all flight duty end times modified to 30 minutes.

• 28.5(F)(1)—Company proposed duty shut off rule for Unscheduled Rest Periods:

o Unless otherwise provided for in the Agreement, a crewmember who requests an

Unscheduled Rest Period pursuant to this subsection may elect, but will not be

required, to remain on duty if the request is made after completing twelve (12)

hours of duty.

Unless otherwise provided for in the Agreement, a crewmember who requests an

Unscheduled Rest Period pursuant to this subsection prior to completing twelve

(12) hours of duty may elect, but will not be required, to perform more than twelve

hours of duty.

• Any other items as previously proposed on 9‐19‐2023.

4. Section 19

• CC 52 schedule remains as is in current book.

• 19.4(B)—days off after Transition, Initial New Equipment, and Requalification Training

changes to a minimum of 7 days.

• No Seam Tour Adjustment Program.

• Any other items as previously proposed on 9‐19‐2023.

5. Section 30

• Contract term that runs through Dec. 21, 2029.

• No options to extend the term beyond Dec. 21, 2029.

• EFPP eliminated.

• Any other items as previously proposed on 4‐21‐2023.

6.Section 6

• 6.8(A)—Conflate TR Captain position into one CA SDP. Establish Evaluator Aircraft Delegate

(EA‐D) SDP.

• EA‐D position will first be offered to current CA in seniority order—holding the position

subject to successful completion of any FAA required training/evaluation. Any remaining

EA‐D vacancies shall be filled pursuant to 6.8(B).

• As part of implementation of the elimination of the TR Captain position, Current TR Captains

will be offered CA positions—holding the CA position is subject to successful completion of

any FAA required training/evaluations.• 6.6 Retreat Rights—remove ability to retreat during IOE.

• Any other items as previously proposed on 4‐21‐2023.

7.Section 15

• Section 15.7 New Fleets—Company to conduct seniority‐based bid within 180 days of first

New Fleet Aircraft being placed on Company operating certificate or upon placement of the

7th New Fleet Aircraft on certificate—whichever occurs first.

• Sections 15.6— Company will release equipment locks prior to filling vacancies under 15.6

through involuntary assignment or with a new crewmember. However, any equipment

locked crewmember awarded a First Officer vacancy in another fleet is subject to the greater

of their remaining existing equipment lock or a new 24‐month equipment lock—and the

crewmember may not upgrade in‐fleet or in another fleet until the lock expires.

8.Section 4

• Eliminate NRFO SDP position.

• Modify NRFO related manuals, eliminate certain NRFOs, recategorize remaining NRFOs into

two groups: Group 1 any crewmember off IOE can complete; and Group 2 both

crewmembers must be NRFO trained and have one year in the fleet.

• A crewmember who completes (i.e., the crewmember must remain available for duty for the

entire NRFO assignment) a NRFO assignment will be guaranteed a Flight Hour Credit per LOA

27‐010. If the crewmember flies during the same duty day and his Flight Hours as described

in 27.2(G) for the duty day exceed the Flight Hour credit, then his Flight Hours calculated as

described in 27.2(G) will be used instead of the Flight Hour credit.

• Company may use OEM pilots or OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights.

• The parties to agree on transition through implementation letter.

9. Section 10

• No change to current book PTO accrual rates, except for new 7‐day advance accrual for new

hires.

• No change to current book PTO usage rates.

• No change to current book personal day bidding limits for Peak Season (5%) and Non‐Peak

Season (10%).

• No change to current book cash out rates for Overflow PTO Days in subsection 10.6(B).

• Retirement/Resignation cash out limited to Active Bank Days only (no Overflow or Long‐

Term).

• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.

10.Section 16

• New Parental Leave Policy:

o Up to 6 months of time off for pregnant crewmember (in addition to applicable

medical leave), and to include two weeks of paid time.

o Up to 3 months for crewmember whose spouse or domestic partner gives birth

or a crewmember who adopts, and to include two weeks of paid time.

• No change to 3‐year limit for LTD/Loss of Medical.

• No expansion of Medical Leave of Absence provisions in subsection 16.3(A).• Any other items as proposed 4‐21‐2023.

11.Section 20

• Crew Meal LOA 20‐002 to be executed as part of TA.

• No change to current book rates for Meal Allowance or Crew Meal Deviations.

• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.

12.Section 24

• No change to current book subsection 24.3(A) life insurance coverage amount.

• No change to lesser of 60% or $5,000 per month for LTD/Loss of Medical Benefit.

• No change to current book subsection 24.7(B) regarding Company payment of medical

expenses and incidentals.

• No change to current book severance payment rate or other current book language in

subsection 24.15(C).

• No Worker’s Compensation and Disability Benefits provision.

• Benefits Committee not added to Section 17 committees.

• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.

13.Section 29

• Company 401(k) Matching Contributions increased as follows:

o 60% effective January 1, 2023 (current book)

o 65% effective January 1, 2024

o 66% effective January 1, 2025

o 67% effective January 1, 2026

o 68% effective January 1, 2027

o 69% effective January 1, 2028

o 70% effective January 1, 2029

• No addition of any type of defined/direct contribution program.

• Any other items proposed on 4‐21‐2023.

14.Remaining Sections/Items:

• Section 9—as previously agreed.

• Section 13—as previously agreed.

• Section 14—as previously agreed.

Originally Posted by Cachaco (Post 3731259)

It is important for everyone to know the truth of what the EB rejected, and how the pilot group could be benefiting from this proposal.

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3731554)

That's 100% good for me. EFPP is useless. NRFO changes and signing bonus are very good.

What should be in bold is that this would be for now until 2026-2029. Why not take the personal quality of life increase for the same period that our contract is valid and fight again, under legal allowed conditions (section 6) in 2026-2029??

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3732354)

Theres a very big difference between that and your post: "If you think allowing OEM pilots to routinely fly OUR airplanes".
Company may use OEM/OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights vs..... allowing OEM pilot to routinely fly OUR airplanes".

Extrapolating mucht?

Originally Posted by Cachaco (Post 3732953)

I don’t get the fixation on the NRFO deal. There simply isn’t enough NRFO flights to justify turning down such a pay increase to keep NRFO while it only benefits so little people.

The EFPP deal, don’t know enough to comment. Maybe someone can expand on this? Regardless, this was a major economic offer with no further extension and now left with nothing because Pedro and his gang deemed it was not good enough. Shame on him and his posse.

Originally Posted by frmrdashtrash (Post 3734121)

Everyone knows what was in the LBFU. I have yet to meet anyone on the road who thinks it's worth the paper it is written on.



What makes you think Section 6 is going to work any differently than what is occuring now?

The NRFO changes and signing bonus are hot garbage. The SDP stipend could have been worked out at any time over the last few years but the company places zero value in any of those positions. The signing bonus is the exact same as it has been since 2015, if not longer. It's laughable, as is the $15K minimum for every pilot on the property. Another poster already mentioned the company vote buying scheme, and that is entirely accurate.



When you let the fox into the henhouse he's going to eat however many chickens he wants. OEM pilots with absolutely routinely fly our aircraft if we give you, oops, management that scope relief. That's clearly the plan.



You clearly have no idea what the definition of a NRFO flight is, how many occur, how they occur, the planning required behind them, the risk assessment required by the current CBA, etc...

"Pedro and his gang" aren't the only ones who deemed this proposal wasn't good enough. Save for some pilots leaving the property who would like to pad their bank accounts via the joke of a signing bonus, no one who considers this place a career carrier wants that POS.


You may head on back to your cubicle now. You tried. Have a Twinkie as a reward.

Originally Posted by Tiggerpilot (Post 3734910)

TW,
Thanks for the well wishes. It's obvious you have spent some time on the line at NJ.

It's just as obvious that others have not spent much time (if any) flying the line.

Good luck sir!

In the end, the fact that a 21 yr Capt left for the airlines should tell you all you need to know about working for NJ.

Originally Posted by Bottom feeder (Post 3734331)

Excellent post!
I recently left after 21+ years and I never had any intention of leaving until I realized they have no plan to pay for skill and experience.
I hope this doesn’t turn out badly for my brothers and sisters still at NJ.

it seems they are absolutely clueless of the opportunities now for professionals in our industry. It is a very different land scape from the days of past where they can do what they are trying to do now with their short sighted take it or leave it mindset.
I left in August and at least every other week I have one of my friends reach out to me asking about the reality of walking away…
There are good and bad to both sides of the 121 vs NJ world but, there are sub 18 month upgrades at every Legacy carrier right now which makes it pretty easy to make up for initial lost pay. Not to mention, I really won’t be far off at month 13 as an FO vs my 21 year Captain pay. Not including the 17% 401K DC from AA makes it over and above what my income was at NJ. FWIW

I’ll finish my last 10 years at American and commuting 🥴.
I sincerely hope you guys get what you deserve, I know all too well how demanding and challenging that job can be.

I have been quietly watching this thread for some time now and it is very apparent which posters are attempting to spread FUD.. and some inexperienced others that may or may not be unknowingly doing the same.

Keep up the fight!! You are worth it!!
Cheers
TW

Originally Posted by tm602 (Post 3735616)

Don't be so sure. You may find yourself not commuting for long unless you live pretty far from a base. Over here at LUV the movement is FAST to get bases. I did one month in OAK, one in Vegas and then right into PHX. Bidding 54% senioroty in base after only 18 months. Leaving NutJets, in my mid 50s, after 17 years, was my best career decision. I hope the ones that stay at NJA get what they are worth.

Originally Posted by MinRest (Post 3735619)

They never have, and never will get what they actually deserve.

Originally Posted by C2078 (Post 3735633)

I love this deserve bullcrap. You only get what you negotiate.

Originally Posted by C2078 (Post 3735633)

I love this deserve bullcrap. You only get what you negotiate. And even then companies wipe their rears with the agreements as we saw in the lost decade.

The pilot group deserves exactly what they have by allowing a leadership group to dangle some puny money in front of them and taking the bait, giving the company exactly what they wanted for very little and now under full control until the end of the decade. That was simply nuts. Had the pilot group remained steadfast and waited for full section 6 they would not be in this complete mess. The public campaign has obviously done very little to influence anything, the EB looks less credibly everyday. NJ is a good mid tier job, good benefits, decent retirement, etc, better than many aviation jobs. The pilots at NJ have zero control over his flying, just his work days (and then even limited), unlike the airlines. By changing the compensation to incentivize flying tired, hungry, carrying write ups, they screwed up royally.

Most of the current problems have been self inflicted, along with a string of company senior managers that have been greedy and evil. Not that he was a saint, but after Santuli left employee relations have gone to ****, exacerbated by the pilot group.

Originally Posted by C2078 (Post 3735633)

I love this deserve bullcrap. You only get what you negotiate. And even then companies wipe their rears with the agreements as we saw in the lost decade.

Originally Posted by tm602 (Post 3735667)

What a statement. Exactly what I have thought for years, and yet say it and the hornet nest starts buzzing in anger. I always felt that it was a better job at the $27,108 I started at than it has become with the current much higher scales. Problem is that every IBB has gotten more money at the cost of QOL going down the tubes, as well as management's treatment of its pilots there. And when the pilots tell their NC "we want ____ in the next contract" and their NC goes to their default answer of "what are you willing to give up?"....inexcusable. And those extended contracts for the bribe, er, signing bonus....well, we see what good that has done. They are in the best market ever and have zero leverage. Sad, but true. They work a far harder job and make well under what the industry dictates. I'd like to see them do better.
Like you said, Santulli wasn't an angel, but he shot straight and the company was his baby. The last 3 CEOs, just not the same.

Originally Posted by Swedepilut (Post 3736799)

Weird some people have been screaming about section 20 for years.....

The idea that the current managment doesn't have the same passion as RTS I don't agree with. I actually believe that they have more passion than RTS to make sure that this company maintains upright at low tides.

I miss RTS but I also appreciate the financial security the current management has gotten us.

Originally Posted by tm602 (Post 3736816)

In fairness, pretty much every aviation company was losing lots money at that time. Remember how much RTS sold his helicopter operation of in what, 3 years after he got the big elbow from Buffet....right around the amount of debt NJA was in. Had he been left alone, I think he would have been able to the same if not better as those who followed. And without firing 495 pilots, taking the nonunion employees benefits, and making the job suck for the next 10 years.

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3737271)

..............outside of your angry useful idiots on the MB.

Originally Posted by Swedepilut (Post 3737246)

495 weren't fired. They were furloughed. A large percentage came back.

The job sucked afterwards due to managment thankfully they did their slash and burn and were thrown out on their ass.

This managment actually has real world experience especially with our ops.

Originally Posted by Pervis (Post 3737286)

Bit of a slip, company man.

Originally Posted by STzBack (Post 3737335)

the fact that you keep on using the juvenile "company man" attribute shows your intellectual level and understanding of life "union propaganda man". So gulible. The last email from MP is such a nice politician comm', for exemple doesnt take into account the FDP. what? you think FDP is going to dry up, disappear? economical melt down? "Mainline" pilots as they keep calling them (real term is Legacy) do have to work to make money. By just flying our 7/7, with easy average fdp of 20 hrs per tour, at $200, you'd come within $20K of those numbers MP listed.

The fact that the union is refusing to bring this to a vote shows the union knows very well where the majority of the group stands. This is supposed to be a democracy where the voters actually pay to vote but the directorate is refusing to accept the will of the majority. And, if the vote would come to a NO, then all the power to PL and his pyromaniac, so why being so scared of a vote?

Choosing a better financial situation for the last 3-6 years of the contract's life while we can do nothing apart from the lame loser actions that you guys are calling for on the MB (call fatigue as much as possible, AOG planes for nothing, don't extend - great for the EJM pilots getting more flying thanks to us) or choosing to make zero extra for the remaining 6 years, because there's nothing we can do legally until we are in Section 6 in 2029. You prefer being poorer and looking like a loser until then or provide to your family and be in a better situation if things go wrong in the country/globally?

But yes, keep avoiding the vote because you know very well what the outcome will be. "company man", lol, such a childish comment.

You know very well this cannot keep on going on. Demographics have changed, pilots here are starting their careers, others are having their first children, the union cannot keep on blocking people from voting and rule things from the very senior pilots POV. This union management, despite all ther politician narrative they keep on sending us, often as dishonest as company management, - crying "it's them, them bad, them very bad, it's not us, it's them" is losing credibility among a larger segment of the group. They need to start delivering as they did in the past 10 years. Things have changed, this is a new world, we are not in the 2000's anymore.

I understand though that the union management's best strategy is to chase pilots away, especially the younger ones, by refusing any deal until it's almost too late in order to achieve a utopian mass exodus.

In the mean time, EJM is enjoying the selloffs generated by the VED boycott. Great strategy.