You're reading the MB as if it is the opinion of the majority of the group. 90% of the group doesn't post on the MB. The only way to prove to you that enough of the membership are not of a mind like mine is to have a vote, but you're scared of it because you know very well that "we don't know what is good for us, and we don't know that we are brainwashed, used, etc, etc". Because we are all so naive in your mind that we cannot make decisions for ourselves and have opinions. Of course I can post on the mb, how can you be so primal that you see company men everywhere. I have said it before along with others on here and elsewhere, there is no conversation on the mb, it is not a place for opinion. as soon as you have different opinions like JL or AV or JD3 or even banned for life, you get insulted, personal attacks, dismissed. The old doberman guard is very active, seems to be living on it 24/7.

I don't lurk much less post on the MB. Nor do the majority of my crew mates. I realize there are the few loud mouths there and I have no reason to waste my time with the same blather over and over from a very small minority. I form my own opinion after many years at this company, and have one vote. At this point it would be a resounding no.

Soft money means nothing to me, and to those in fleets where FDP is far less than other fleets. Try going to a bank and tell them you may earn this if....... Take away the soft money and load up base wages. Annual salary to include extended days? Ah, no. I don't extend-of my own volition. I don't do magic ball or work beyond the schedule I choose. I expect to be paid honest wages for those days I work, not based upon the what ifs.

you can use the flight hours per tour average the union is publishing.

The 08/17 email from the union scheduling commitee gave us the last avg per fleet:

Phenom 21.21
XLS 19.62
Latitude 22.29
Sovereign 17.50
350 23.46
Longitude 22.22
650 20.31

The 2 GLX are at 17.95 and 13.98 but cannot be compared to the other fleets, their OT is incomparably so much higher and compensate.

All fleets are pretty close in avg, and if we take the difference between the Sovereign and the 350, at $200 (proposed rate) that would come to $1,192 per tour so at about 20 tours per year, yes a difference of about $24K avg. Same as at the airlines, some planes pay better, some bases pay better.

I agree, not set in stone like a total income at the airline, all will depend on how much you pick and drop, you fleet, your base

So again I ask what fleet are you on? As you know there is a high and a low to get that average. Would you feel the same if you were always on the low end or a fleet that is known to have mx issues.

Large cabin fleets don't do near as much OT as years past. I'm in one, and it doesn't matter if you're old or young. Again, no guarantees. Yea, one can pick up extended days, but I will not rely on that soft money for my budget. To do so is foolish at best. VAWDs can go away in a heart beat. OT is hit and miss. Even holiday pay can be elusive, depending on one's schedule. So no guarantees, no vote. The extras are icing on the cake if you so choose. Some of us prefer our families to working most of the month.

Oh, and company says they are postured to absorb downturns, unlike years past. Who absorbs the most loss if/when the economy tanks? With all the soft money, the pilots will be the largest single group to take the biggest hit when all that soft money dries up. Nice plan.

what is the definition of average? it's your average for the year. Of course there are low time tours and high time tours. You're still going to be paid to fly, alike the ailrine pilots, you're not going to be paid to stay in the hotel at any excuse possible. This is still a job where work has to be done, not a cushy trust funder gig.

this latest company offer is still a very good financial improvement for the next 6 years of the contract. That's why IBI are supposed to be, improvement on the current contract, not a brand new contract with changes through all paragraphs. Pretty suicidal to refuse anything and wait until 2029 with nothing in hand, no financial improvement. Can't wait to see your face when we reach 2029 and you count how much you lost by pushing to refuse this money. Espedially if something bad happens in life. Never good to regret things.
Like I said, negotiate on the OT, negotiate the showtime keeping it at 1.5 for international, put some conditional limit to the NRFO deal and this could be packaged very quickly. The problem is that there is no will to negotiate on the side of union negotiating commitee and they have made it a personal issue between them and the EMT. If this isn't move to a vote, we will need a change of personel at union and EMT level, can't keep one or the other, they are gone too personal with their attacks, acting like the clowns in congress.

ok. One more time. What fleet are you on? Not a hard question.

You do realize this cannot be put out to a vote currently right? Bullet points are not able to be voted on and that’s all they are right now. The company and union would need to get all the language into contract form and agree on it, then send it out which is impossible when they’re not talking.

As far as losing money, yeah we’re going to lose a little while we wait for a proper offer but even with what has been proposed, we’re under regional pay. I work far too hard to be paid less than the regionals.

Who absorbed the loss at the airlines when the flying went away 2 years ago? did they get their min guarantee? Nope. Min Guarantee was gone, cut, pilots were forced to go on unpaid leave. Their real money was gone. You still had you base pay. What's happening to the A320 captains at B6 right now when the company is asking them to take LOA's for January? The soft money goes away for us, the real money goes away for them too when things go bad.

I understand your blind support for the union leadership, old methods worked back then and old style people still believe in old methods, still think in 2024 that all out wars to solve issues. I would not be surprised if the negotiating team never countered the last offer, never negotiated points, I wouldnt be surprised if ML did act as his typical self and would have walked out of the room, acting unhinged and unprofessional, along the lines of his insulting MB responses everytime someone asks a pertinent question. I wouldn't be surprised if with a counter offer and certain simple changes requests we would have not reached a better deal where we would have made an increase of about 28%-30% year over year and why not FDP at zero or at 5. Of course the company must have added stuff they knew they would have to let go with a counter offer. But The union lead negotiator has zero intention of negotiating, he wants to fight a war until his demands are met unconditionally, making sure some are not achievable.
He doesnt have many years left and will not suffer any consequences in 2029 if things go sour for us.

The union's leadership's job is to represent us, not to think for us, not make life choices for us, we are free, adults, we decide. The union's job is to negotiate for us, brings us a deal, we like it or not. we choose. If we don't like the deal, they do the job we pay a lot for, they go renegotiate. But, have you seen the salary paid to the union leadership? added to a CC76-CC72 base pay, pretty cosy to make a half mil' per year and not have to actually fly, I understand why certain people get all up in arms when talks of a recall are rempant.
What does ML have on PL and P? why have they not fired the failing negotiator they hired? They must know by now that he won't bring them a deal. Where's PL been? Why isn't he involved in the negotiating? It's his legacy as a union president that's at play.

Did you look at the growth at EJM in the past years? did you notice the percentage of EJM planes doing our "sell offs"? did you notice the alignement of uniforms? the redesign of interiors to look alike NJA planes? Do you know that people can actually buy into programs that actually give the company choices to put them on NJA tails or EJM tails depending on availability?
This group has it's limits, nobody is irreplacable, this company is replacable, BH can restart something whenever they're done with the disgruntle ones. As we have made it a personal affair, attacking individuals in their private lives, in their neighborhood and keep on insulting them publicly, do you really think that BH is going to play with a toxic group forever? Don't you think they have options and will have drastic options when needed, when this contract ends, to deal with the thorn that we could become? For sure I can be ramatizing, reading into something that maybe isn't there. But is it? Is a giant financial corporation like BH really going to get played by a small group of pilots making north of $200K/year? Do we really believe that? Are we so disconnected from reality that we actually believe that? Most of us have never had a real 8-5 job, 6 days per week, 4 weeks per months with 2 weeks vacations per year, we have no idea what real life is but we think we can demand anything. We want airlines compensations but we don't want to be sent home at 65.... We demand things and we have forgotten what negotiating means and that Santa doesn't exist and he won't bring us all and every toy we have asked for.

The sad thing is that none of the last 15 pilots I have talked to agree with what's happening and shared that the friends they talk have the same concerns and questions. It's starting to really feel like a hijack by a minority who has no intention to let this group decide for itself, and obviously no intention to counter-offer and negotiate. Pretty sad.

This was a proper offer. It's not being renegotiated and not worked on to be put in the correct language to be brought to a vote because some people do not want us to vote. We are not "under regional pay" and believew me, you work much less than at the regional, stop being that delisuonal. stop acting like someone who cannot read the fine prints and knows life at the regionals in 2023. Why is PSA coming with a new magival money offer every 15 days? Because if they were making those 100s of thousands year 1 would they still be there? Why are FO refusing to upgrade to Captain at the regionals? Come on man, inform yourself.

Do you realize that when people have interested in negotiating, counter offer, make a deal, these bullet points can be made into language. Do you really believe that the company submitted a bullet point proposal as a "contract offer", come on, are you naive? this was an offer. We should have counter offered, drop some, modify some, don't you really think they have a bit more leeway as to how high they can go? The job of the negotiating commitee is to take these bullet points, send their adult response (instead of "no to everything" without counter points) and the language for a contract that we can vote on would take 48 hours to be written if needed.

Bro, irrelevant question and one that I will not answer anyway.

I'm not great at reading interpreting all of the nuances of our contract, but it feels that our scope is pretty solid as far as using EJM or any other operator for sub-contracts, they are limited to 15% of our flying in times of growth. I can live with that.

You are conflating a lot of components here that is worth correcting. Those that went on reduced min guarantees did it VOLUNTARILY. Min guarantee was not gone, and cut, and pilots were not forced to go on unpaid leave. At least not at the majors. Base pay is min guarantee at the airlines. I can tell you that A320 CAs as B6 are doing just fine and will get min guarantee and more if there is flying for it. The LOAs are voluntary and it is pretty typical for the early months of the new year. AS is doing the same thing. They asked for it in JAN, you could take it if you wanted to. My line has 82 hours in it for Jan and I will get paid that or better. Honestly, your entire statement is basically incorrect.

you are so uneducated and clearly don’t fly the line to realize how hard we work so you definitely are management scum.

I’ve been with NetJets for about two years and don’t agree with anything you’ve said. The stats of the message board have been posted before. Maybe 90% don’t post but closer to %90 do read through It. Polls have been taken and no one wants that embarrassment of a potential offer. It looks like you came to this public forum to spread propaganda and the result is mostly you arguing with minrest and others that don’t even work here.

Prof, it's called FUD.

He's a bit all over the place and seem to like steering sh!!t but he does have some interesting points that more people share. Where's the embarrassement in having to reject a proposal through vote? It doesn't cost us anything to vote, it's a vote, yes or no. Some like you may think it's an embarrasing proposal, some like me could be 50/50 (I need a few things changed and I am pretty sure they can be changed) others will like it a lot. I am also starting to wonder why there's refusal to bring this last one (with a few negotiated changes) to a vote.

I have confidence our team is convinced we do have good negotiating credit left and will get a better deal before 2025. Because I hope we are not going to waste potential small improvement the way we've had them in IBI and get nothing until 2026. That would be a lot of money thrown away over the next 3 years.

It’s pretty simple. Putting something to a vote ( even when the survey data says it will fail ) come with risks. If you need me to explain more than that PM me. But I think you get the idea.

Just ask ML he loves to dox pilots who don't agree with him.

If only NJASAP made a video of two people complaining about not following the rules and being denied things being the company problem not theirs.

Entitlement is blatant.

I could care less who he is. Just want to know if he is on a fleet that has reliability issues that severely affect fdp and if that would change his perspective. The refusal to answer tells me that he is on a fleet that isn’t affected as much. We need hard $ increases not more fdp. Let alone why would we have anything that gives concessions to the current contract. Let’s not forget the company started this discussion. It’s not cause they are so nice they want to give us more. If that were the case the crew food LOA that was sitting on DWs desk would have been signed long ago.

wow! How hard we work? you sounds like a coal miner in West Virginia. You're at a job where one starts at around $150K per year, working 15 days a month, where we call fatigue and aog everytime we "don't feel like it" or when we forgot to order food and delay flights or call fatigue for food, where we cancel a flight when we see a little rain cloud. "how hard we work", you know how weak and entitled you sound?
I like the "management scum" insult though. It's very funny.

Absolutely not true that 90% read it. Also total lie, no polls/survey has been taken for this latest proposal.

You've been here for 2 years, great. You're going to learn all that the union leadership says isn't always true, same as what the company tells you. It's politics and the politicians make good money by being politicians. it's a battle of ideas, visions, company vs union leadership and within the pilot group, 2, 3 factions with opposite views, alliances are made and broken on a regular basis. You will learn many have corpses hidfden in their backyard too, a lot of personal back stories between individuals, a lot of bitterness from things of the past. Then you'll notice the guard dogs, the barking minority on the MB, there for each and every posts, same narrative, being usefull idiots for the controlling narrative right now. Hopefully you'll broaden your vision and start to understand that especially as a Year 2 pilot, your interests won't be priority for most. Some can wait until Section 6 in 2029 to get a better deal. Hopefully you can provide to your family, your kids and build your capital, your 401K nicely until then and won't miss the 150K+ you will lose in 3 years if no NEGOTIATING is done.
If you do believe that unconditional demands win negotiations, you need to start reading books, history and economics are very interesting subjects.

There are some very great alternative, some balanced pilots here who would do great leading this group, some without personal agendas, not trying to prove something one last time. Hope you chose the right faction the day comes.

This video was so bad. I am shocked that adults among the union leadership really believe that this is a good representation of the pilot group. Laughable. So ridiculous. Yes, we will definitely connect with the owners and management.

Se starts with “I always imagined myself going to American Airlines and flying with my dad, he’s been there 36 years, and that’s just where I wanted to be”...
So, she never wanted to be a business jet pilot, she never wanted to come to, and surely not stay at a fractional operator loading bags and cleaning the toilet seat.

“they started denying meal deviations when I didn’t order my food in accordance with the policy.”
Not only it's her fault for failing to order her food within the 1 hour (omg so hard to do) but really this is the first thing that she lists to illustrate how bad is the company?! Her meal deviation? Are you kidding?
emoji emoji omg omg emoji!

These 20+ year-olds making about $300k/year combined as a couple, working 15 days per month, and they had to cut back on their social lives because they were tired? omg!! I feel so so sad for them. Because he played video game for 3 hours at night while she was sleeping? Is this a parody? a satire?

Are we using children for our marketing campaign nowadays? How entitled little babies could you be. This is really what the union leadership believe is a strong tool of communication? for which segment? This is purely trgeted at the message board warriors, no one else would take this seriously, no way. My husband is still laughing at it.

Thank you for correcting me, you have a much better insight and knowledge of how it went, I am just repeating what my close friends explained back then, probably just interpretations. Yes it was voluntary but some of my friends didn't really feel like they had a choice, "to save the company and save your job, we would really think you should really take the LOAs" was the way they explained it. Same as my A320 friends at B6, they don't have to take it, but are a bit nervous about the fact that it was proposed and that it's on the table.

I would honestly like to find this 150k pilot starting out working 15 days a month? are they working their vacations which couldnt be till the second year? how many extended days? that wouldnt be 15 days a month.. sounds like some AJ or Ricci math. I guess if you're okay with living in Columbus you would get to go home every night in a managment postion, a bit different.

The survey of what everyone wanted out of an amended agreement, maybe you didn’t get the invite, I guess.
that’s only my opinion, so if there’s enough with your viewpoint get together and do something, I believe they call it organized labor or similar.

I don't know about her/him, but I made $120K my first year in 2020 with 1 month off no flying, FDP at 12.5 and $118 and I extended twice. Made $150K Year 2 in 2021 with 2 weeks vacations (21 days in a row of not working twice) and a month off for a mtb broken collarbone. I didnt extend more than 2-3 times a year as an FO because I felt the extended day pay wasn't worth it for me vs. time at home.

I would think that making close to $150K in 2022-2023 Year 1 with FDP at 10 and $148 would achievable by a majority of the pilots, no?

Typical embellishment of a management type. Your numbers and presumptions are so far off there is no way you are a line pilot. A typical 7 day tour for most of us entails 80-90 hours of duty, crew swaps, mid tour airlines, legit AOGs, missing crew food (try flying a jet without fuel- no different than the human element), screw ups from Bridgeway that are left up to the crew to fix, etc.

Yes, there is a very small minority who fit your description, as there are in every department in every company. However, pilots are a getterdone type personality. I've been flying more than 40 years in both civilian and military environments so I feel I have a pretty good sampling of the realities on the line. Including 5 separate fleets at EJA/NJA. Your diatribes are most telling, as are the other "slips" to your arguments. Go back to your cubical. I hope you're better at your real job than you are at this game.

Not in the XLS or Sovereign fleets. Or when Mx availability is in the tube for other fleets. Or when waiting for 6+ months for IOE, not touching the line before having to go to recurrent.

As in non guaranteed soft money.

Yeah, our scope is so great we have NJ painted G450s in QS tail numbers flying QS owners around with non-seniority list pilots. Pretty solid.

As for the video, it was pretty cringy. Jon is better than that, I'm surprised they even published it. When she talked about not getting deviations after failing to order food within an hour I couldn't help but laugh. Also the trouble getting days off on the 8/6, I don't get the outrage there. You know your schedule for a whole trimester, maybe don't schedule a girl's weekend when you're supposed to be working? Just a thought. And if she thinks they had opposite sleep schedules here, wait until he gets on with AA and they get different equipment, bases, and schedules. Weddings and true life events have never really been a problem here. Just an email to the ACP or CP usually gets it done. Then again, I don't consider video games to be a "life event" that requires a schedule change.

I understand the message they were trying to convey, but outside of our pilot group I don't see many getting behind that couple or the union that put them out there.

The union's strategy group needs to start coming up with strategy that will actually work, because pickets with 5-75 participants, mobile billboards, and mystery baseballs got us a concessionary "offer" that I wouldn't wipe with. I really hope you guys get something really good in 2024. I'll be with you in spirit.

100% agree with you.
As far as the video, the comments from a few pilots I talked to today were... spicy :) The union spent 2.3M extra cash on stuff like that? John's good usually but this was quite cringy indeed.

Do you understand what's the definition of average? the average in the XLS and the Sovereign means some people, half, do actually make that money. If the XLS were all grounded, all MX'd, all fatigued, would the average per tour be where it is? Come on!

Lol. Well aware, thanks. Was replying to the comment that 150K was achieveable Year 1 by the majority.

Absolutely. That pilots have nearly zero control over.

Except the pilots had 100% control over voting FDP in or not. I have said it for years that it simply forced people to fly fatigued by throwing money at them. The money was good for a bit but the honeymoon has worn off and pilots are blaming the company for the soft money drying up. That's what happens to soft money, it goes away. If the pilots and NJASAP actually went for meaningful change instead of a quick buck to reduce F bombs, you guys wouldn't even be having this conversation.

He's up playing video games..... Lol who wrote this? Even worse who kept that edit in?

Every complaint she had (because it was mostly her) was easily fixed. Follow the rules, and use the options given to you if you continue to have issue go to your PM. There is a fix in there somewhere.

Finally who cares? They are gone. They have no skin in the game.