Notices
Part 135 Part 135 commercial operators

Ameriflight

Old 07-06-2012, 03:59 PM
  #1271  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: single pilot cargo, turboprop
Posts: 484
Default

Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr View Post
The only flights that have paid, employee FOs are the E120s. All the other flights can operate single pilot, so the only FOs we have are the ones who have bought flight time through outside flight school programs.

And before anybody jumps in about "pay for play" and "stealing jobs", it is in our Ops Specs that the commercial FOs can log time so it has been signed off by the FAA. And if they weren't there, no one would, so no one is loosing a job because of them. It's just a chance for new folks who don't want to do flight instructing to get the time required to get a job and do it while getting real world weather and operations experience.
Or from a country where it isn't very reasonable to build flight time in the General Aviation realm (ie Korea).
own nav is offline  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:10 PM
  #1272  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Any
Posts: 656
Default

Originally Posted by own nav View Post
Or from a country where it isn't very reasonable to build flight time in the General Aviation realm (ie Korea).
Sounds like you speak from experience.
frmrbuffdrvr is offline  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:24 PM
  #1273  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Yazzoo's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2011
Position: E175, Left
Posts: 271
Default

Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr View Post
The only flights that have paid, employee FOs are the E120s. All the other flights can operate single pilot, so the only FOs we have are the ones who have bought flight time through outside flight school programs
Don't forget the interns who get paid to be FOs at the end of the internship! Was an SIC on the 1900 and didn't "pay to play"
Yazzoo is offline  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:52 PM
  #1274  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 112
Default

Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr View Post

And before anybody jumps in about "pay for play" and "stealing jobs", it is in our Ops Specs that the commercial FOs can log time so it has been signed off by the FAA.
I am curious how the "FO" can log the time for a position that does not require a second in command. The FAA may have signed off on the program to sell the time and have someone sitting in the right seat of a cargo operation, but logging the time? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.
SWAblue is offline  
Old 07-07-2012, 03:14 AM
  #1275  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Any
Posts: 656
Default

Originally Posted by SWAblue View Post
I am curious how the "FO" can log the time for a position that does not require a second in command. The FAA may have signed off on the program to sell the time and have someone sitting in the right seat of a cargo operation, but logging the time? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.
I've never heard of any problems and it's been going on for over 10 years. And at least Korean Air has no problems with it since the folks that come over from their program are guaranteed an interview once they get 1000 total time.

That said, there are other threads where this has been argued out right and left. The point I was making was that other than the E120, we don't have any paid FO positions, which is what I think the gentleman's question was.
frmrbuffdrvr is offline  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:12 AM
  #1276  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 112
Default

Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr View Post
I've never heard of any problems and it's been going on for over 10 years. And at least Korean Air has no problems with it since the folks that come over from their program are guaranteed an interview once they get 1000 total time.

That said, there are other threads where this has been argued out right and left. The point I was making was that other than the E120, we don't have any paid FO positions, which is what I think the gentleman's question was.
If the question can not be easily answered, then the argument will always continue.

Speaking from someone with inside knowledge, that time would easily be discounted or at least heavily questioned during the interview if discovered during the logbook review.
SWAblue is offline  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:46 AM
  #1277  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Any
Posts: 656
Default

Originally Posted by SWAblue View Post
If the question can not be easily answered, then the argument will always continue.

Speaking from someone with inside knowledge, that time would easily be discounted or at least heavily questioned during the interview if discovered during the logbook review.
Well, it didn't hurt a guy who did it back in about 2002 then went to Great Lakes and is now at SWA.
frmrbuffdrvr is offline  
Old 07-07-2012, 10:16 AM
  #1278  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 151
Default

Good stuff!
ATOP40 is offline  
Old 07-07-2012, 10:37 AM
  #1279  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 112
Default

Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr View Post
Well, it didn't hurt a guy who did it back in about 2002 then went to Great Lakes and is now at SWA.
They may not have discovered it for all we know. If you would like to take this one example as a sign of certainty then so be it. But I have been witness of 20 hours of sim time mistakenly logged incorrectly being questioned. The applicant addressed the issue appropriately and the discussion resulted in a positive display of his honesty. It could have easily gone the other way.

With that being said, is there a section in your ops specs that a SIC is required for Part 135 cargo operations in your PA31 or BE99?

You can log anything you want. How it is viewed by future employers is another subject matter. Anything interpreted as dishonest will automatically disqualify one from further consideration. Unless I am missing something you have failed to explain in the past few posts, whether or not this has been argued before, you can not legally log second in command time in any operation that does not require the position. Only those who need the time I can imagine would debate this point of well known FAR common sense among professional pilots.

My logbook was not perfect when I was interviewed. But there were no glaring areas to be questioned also.

One may not like this message on the reality of this subject, but the good news is that anything is correctable when honestly done so. Or roll the dice and HOPE it is not a concern for your future.
SWAblue is offline  
Old 07-07-2012, 11:45 AM
  #1280  
Gets Weekends Off
 
freightdog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 'Bus Driver Right Seat
Posts: 523
Default

Originally Posted by SWAblue View Post
I am curious how the "FO" can log the time for a position that does not require a second in command. The FAA may have signed off on the program to sell the time and have someone sitting in the right seat of a cargo operation, but logging the time? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.
We have OpSpecs, as do almost everyone else, that allow for lower than standard departures if the have an SIC onboard. Since an SIC is required for lower than standard takeoffs then they can be required to be on onboard for other ops. This has been my best understanding of the regs to this point.
freightdog is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Mrsmith42e
Cargo
22
01-22-2021 08:14 AM
waflyboy
Cargo
3
05-10-2020 02:48 PM
chazbird
Part 135
10
07-01-2007 03:47 PM
beech_nut
Cargo
0
01-28-2006 11:55 AM
Freight Dog
Cargo
0
11-17-2005 09:27 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices