On-Call Is Not Rest
01-10-2010 | 11:13 AM
#91
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: King Air
That is as gray as it comes ,
how is it possible to be neither on duty nor at rest ? is it pilot purgatory ?
I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is an accepted practice and has been for a long time and until the FAA comes strait out and says " On call is on duty " it will continue to be that way.
what other rule has so much confusion and ambiguity, they say you must have a clean wing PERIOD, you must have the Vis, there are no questions and people can't get around it
how is it possible to be neither on duty nor at rest ? is it pilot purgatory ?
I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is an accepted practice and has been for a long time and until the FAA comes strait out and says " On call is on duty " it will continue to be that way.
what other rule has so much confusion and ambiguity, they say you must have a clean wing PERIOD, you must have the Vis, there are no questions and people can't get around it
01-10-2010 | 11:26 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
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There's no gray areas in the rules. You're either in compliance or you aren't.
Easy. Rest has to be known in advance. You have to know you're at rest. If you have a responsibility for duty should duty arise, you are not at rest. You may not be on duty, but you are also not at rest. You aren't on duty until you've been assigned to duty by the certificate holder. When you're sitting at home, on call, you have yet to be assigned to duty (not on duty) but you are responsible for duty should duty arise (so not at rest). It's very clear.
They won't because it isn't duty. The important point (that you seem to be missing) is that on call is not rest. Rest is the important factor. You have to be able to look back 24 hours and see 10 consecutive hours of rest in order to be legal to start a duty period. If you can't do that, then you need more rest.
This isn't confusing or ambiguous unless you're trying to get around the legal interpretations that the FAA has come out with. The fact that a company isn't following them doesn't make it legal. You either comply or you don't.
You don't have to believe me. The FAA has done the work for us.
Start here:http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...2009/Berry.pdf
Emphasis mine. You can read the entire interpretation for yourself. That's the legal interpretation the FAA will be using to violate you, not your FSDO or POI's interpretation.
It is very clear. No gray. No ambiguity. On-call is not rest.
-mini
how is it possible to be neither on duty nor at rest ? is it pilot purgatory ?
I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is an accepted practice and has been for a long time and until the FAA comes strait out and says " On call is on duty " it will continue to be that way.
what other rule has so much confusion and ambiguity, they say you must have a clean wing PERIOD, you must have the Vis, there are no questions and people can't get around it
You don't have to believe me. The FAA has done the work for us.
Start here:http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...2009/Berry.pdf
Originally Posted by That interpretation
You question whether the certificate holder may use an on-call schedule that requires pilots to respond to the certificate holder's phone calls and report for immediate flight duty 24-hours a day, as set forth in your example. Although § 135.267(b) does not contain an explicit duty time limitation, it appears the 24-hour on-call situation you present would not meet the rest requirements of § 135.267(d). Section 135.267(d) requires that flight crewmembers must have at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period preceding the planned completion time ofan assignment made under § 135.267(b). A rest period must be (1) continuous, (2) determined prospectively (i.e., known in advance), and (3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. See Legal Interpretation to Frederick W. Schwarz, from Rebecca MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division (Nov. 16,2007); Legal Interpretation to James R. Knight, from Donald Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel (Dec. 9, 1999).
Under the facts you present, the pilot has an obligation to respond to the certificate holder if he is contacted. Furthermore, the pilot is not informed in advance of when his 10-hour rest period will begin. In order to meet the rest requirement in the situation you present, if the certificate holder assigned a pilot to a flight with a report time of 2300, the pilot must be informed that he will be on rest from 1300-2300 no later than 1300 that same day. Additionally, if the certificate holder contacts the pilot during that rest period to notify him to report for his flight assignment at 2300, it cannot require the pilot to answer or respond to its call because the rest period would not be free from restraint. See Legal Interpretation to Michael T. Brazill, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Dec. 19, 2005) (stating that if a pilot is obligated to respond to contact from the certificate holder he is not at rest); Legal Interpretation to Candace K. Kolander from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Apr. 29, 2005) (discussing flight crewmember contact during rest periods); Legal Interpretation to James R. Knight, fromDonald Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel (Dec. 9, 1999); Legal Interpretation to Frederick G. Pappas, Jr., from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations and Enforcement Division (June 24, 1991). In this instance, because the rest period is not known in advance, nor free from all restraint by the certificate holder, the 24-hour on-call schedule does not meet the rest requirements of § 135.267(d).
Under the facts you present, the pilot has an obligation to respond to the certificate holder if he is contacted. Furthermore, the pilot is not informed in advance of when his 10-hour rest period will begin. In order to meet the rest requirement in the situation you present, if the certificate holder assigned a pilot to a flight with a report time of 2300, the pilot must be informed that he will be on rest from 1300-2300 no later than 1300 that same day. Additionally, if the certificate holder contacts the pilot during that rest period to notify him to report for his flight assignment at 2300, it cannot require the pilot to answer or respond to its call because the rest period would not be free from restraint. See Legal Interpretation to Michael T. Brazill, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Dec. 19, 2005) (stating that if a pilot is obligated to respond to contact from the certificate holder he is not at rest); Legal Interpretation to Candace K. Kolander from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Apr. 29, 2005) (discussing flight crewmember contact during rest periods); Legal Interpretation to James R. Knight, fromDonald Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel (Dec. 9, 1999); Legal Interpretation to Frederick G. Pappas, Jr., from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations and Enforcement Division (June 24, 1991). In this instance, because the rest period is not known in advance, nor free from all restraint by the certificate holder, the 24-hour on-call schedule does not meet the rest requirements of § 135.267(d).
It is very clear. No gray. No ambiguity. On-call is not rest.
-mini
01-10-2010 | 11:36 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
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Originally Posted by exerpt
The FAA defines "duty" as "actual work for the air carrier or the present responsibility for such should the occasion arise." Legal Interpretation 1993-31 (Dec. 13, 1993). The period of time during which a pilot is obligated to answer a carrier's page or call, whether or not such a page or call is received, is not a rest period. Id. Therefore, because the pilot in your hypothetical has the duty to report for a flight assignment once notified by the certificate holder, he is on duty for the duration of his shift.
-mini
Last edited by minitour; 01-10-2010 at 11:49 AM.
01-10-2010 | 11:48 AM
#96
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[T]he Federal Aviation Regulations do not explicitly allow `one phone call' from the carrier during a pilot's rest period. However, the FAA established the `one phone call policy,' based on certain narrow conditions and the fact pattern presented to us. Generally speaking, an air carrier can initiate a phone call and a pilot can--on his or her own volition--receive one phone call from an air carrier without the phone call being viewed as disruptive and breaking the continuous rest period. See Nov. 7, Letter to James W. Johnson, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel (copy enclosed).
-mini
01-10-2010 | 01:04 PM
#97
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Contingency is an arrangement where a lawyer takes a percentage of the settlement as his/her fee. No money up front. Many lawyers will accept a wrongful termination case on those terms. Call around.
The "one phone call exception" can be used if the pilot chooses to answer an unexpectedly ringing telephone. If the pilot is required to answer the phone call, it is not rest. The pilot can put the operator on notice that he does not ever wish to be disturbed during a rest period, or turn the phone off or tell the front desk not to forward calls. The operator can make only one attempt to contact the pilot.
Repeated phone calls can be used as evidence of a broken rest period. Contact after 'do not call' notice is evidence. Contact during a period of time when a pilot would reasonably be expected to be sleeping (e.g. late night or the middle of the rest period) can also be used against the pilot/operator. Contact during a rest period that actually causes fatigue can be used to justify a 91.13 violation.
Still sounds like your stuff is hangin' out there to me. I'm not answering.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...5/kolander.rtf
http://cf.alpa.org/Internet/Projects...ullopinion.PDF
Lawsuits scare business owners, not poor pilots. I'm more afraid of losing my certificate or losing my job to an illegally operating competitor. If one sticks to the facts and the truth, there should be nothing to worry about. Plus, anonymity is like a nice, warm blanket. (Name that movie 
)
Repeated phone calls can be used as evidence of a broken rest period. Contact after 'do not call' notice is evidence. Contact during a period of time when a pilot would reasonably be expected to be sleeping (e.g. late night or the middle of the rest period) can also be used against the pilot/operator. Contact during a rest period that actually causes fatigue can be used to justify a 91.13 violation.
Still sounds like your stuff is hangin' out there to me. I'm not answering.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...5/kolander.rtf
http://cf.alpa.org/Internet/Projects...ullopinion.PDF
)
01-10-2010 | 02:27 PM
#98
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Joined: Dec 2008
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I am curious. Now that SR22 has presented reams of documentation to support his conclusion, will someone from the other side defend their position?
1) Do you still think it is legal to do 24/7 call?
2)Do you do it yourself and/or require others to do it?
3)would you still threaten to fire someone for following the FARs?
4) If you would still require other pilots to operate this way; what other FARs would you include as too expensive to follow?
5)How do you differentiate between what rules to follow and which ones not to follow (These rest rules would seem to have a major impact on safety since they have been on the NTSB's Most Wanted list for years and years now meaning that even if the rules are followed in their present form they are stilll not enough)?
6)Are you honest with your employers, the FAA, aircraft owners, and customers that some aviation regulations are just too expensive to comply with and are therefore overlooked?
7)What would you say to a customer/employer who insisted you break the law in order to remain employed?
The reason I ask these questions is that before engaging in this conversation one could claim ignorance on this topic. Although that is a little scary that a professional pilot doesn't even know what the FAA considers rest, especially with all of the fatigue stuff all over the news after several high profile incidents. But now that the info has been laid out for you so eloquently by SR22, will it change anything?
As a professional pilot, what are your responsibilities in this area? I ask these questions because I am curious about how pilots as a group view their responsibilities? Also, for anyone who has followed what is going on with the regionals and the crapstorm that Congress and the FAA are giving them over rest issues, as an industry, we should note that if we don't police ourselves; they will be happy to do it for us?
1) Do you still think it is legal to do 24/7 call?
2)Do you do it yourself and/or require others to do it?
3)would you still threaten to fire someone for following the FARs?
4) If you would still require other pilots to operate this way; what other FARs would you include as too expensive to follow?
5)How do you differentiate between what rules to follow and which ones not to follow (These rest rules would seem to have a major impact on safety since they have been on the NTSB's Most Wanted list for years and years now meaning that even if the rules are followed in their present form they are stilll not enough)?
6)Are you honest with your employers, the FAA, aircraft owners, and customers that some aviation regulations are just too expensive to comply with and are therefore overlooked?
7)What would you say to a customer/employer who insisted you break the law in order to remain employed?
The reason I ask these questions is that before engaging in this conversation one could claim ignorance on this topic. Although that is a little scary that a professional pilot doesn't even know what the FAA considers rest, especially with all of the fatigue stuff all over the news after several high profile incidents. But now that the info has been laid out for you so eloquently by SR22, will it change anything?
As a professional pilot, what are your responsibilities in this area? I ask these questions because I am curious about how pilots as a group view their responsibilities? Also, for anyone who has followed what is going on with the regionals and the crapstorm that Congress and the FAA are giving them over rest issues, as an industry, we should note that if we don't police ourselves; they will be happy to do it for us?
01-10-2010 | 02:56 PM
#99
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Joined: Jan 2008
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1) Do you still think it is legal to do 24/7 call?
2)Do you do it yourself and/or require others to do it?
3)would you still threaten to fire someone for following the FARs?
4) If you would still require other pilots to operate this way; what other FARs would you include as too expensive to follow?
5)How do you differentiate between what rules to follow and which ones not to follow (These rest rules would seem to have a major impact on safety since they have been on the NTSB's Most Wanted list for years and years now meaning that even if the rules are followed in their present form they are stilll not enough)?
6)Are you honest with your employers, the FAA, aircraft owners, and customers that some aviation regulations are just too expensive to comply with and are therefore overlooked?
7)What would you say to a customer/employer who insisted you break the law in order to remain employed?
The reason I ask these questions is that before engaging in this conversation one could claim ignorance on this topic. Although that is a little scary that a professional pilot doesn't even know what the FAA considers rest, especially with all of the fatigue stuff all over the news after several high profile incidents. But now that the info has been laid out for you so eloquently by SR22, will it change anything?
As a professional pilot, what are your responsibilities in this area? I ask these questions because I am curious about how pilots as a group view their responsibilities? Also, for anyone who has followed what is going on with the regionals and the crapstorm that Congress and the FAA are giving them over rest issues, as an industry, we should note that if we don't police ourselves; they will be happy to do it for us?
01-10-2010 | 04:13 PM
#100
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Excellent post cencal, but I am really interested to hear from one of the guys saying they would fire someone for this. I am just trying to understand their thought process. Is it just to make some extra money or do they really think its ok?
Also, I think SR22 had a good point. A company who is following the rules ( and incurring the extra expense involved) would have a great incentive to crush their competition. If there were several other 135 ops in the area and I could run all of the others out of the game and make their pilots uninsurable, why wouldn't I do that? More money for me and my pilots? the same as if I found out they were cheating on their maintenance, certificates, etc..... I wouldn't want my business to rely on the mercy of my competitors and I wouldn't want my certificate to rely on the mercy of a pilot I just fired for not violating the FARs.
Also, I think SR22 had a good point. A company who is following the rules ( and incurring the extra expense involved) would have a great incentive to crush their competition. If there were several other 135 ops in the area and I could run all of the others out of the game and make their pilots uninsurable, why wouldn't I do that? More money for me and my pilots? the same as if I found out they were cheating on their maintenance, certificates, etc..... I wouldn't want my business to rely on the mercy of my competitors and I wouldn't want my certificate to rely on the mercy of a pilot I just fired for not violating the FARs.
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