Our salaried pilots spend an average of 15-17 days at home, of that time at home they get 2 hard days (1 day = Midnight-0600 the following day or 30 hours) and 2 soft days (we will call them last). If they are not on a hard day, they are on call, or available to fly. Am I correct when I say that some of you believe that the time that our pilots spend at home, collecting a salary, is duty time, and that I can actually never call them, because they are not at rest?

 

No. It is not duty time. ...but if they're teathered to a phone (because you might call), then it is not rest.

The FAA doesn't care about Duty time for 135. Rest is all that matters. If they can't look back 24 hours and find 10 consecutive hours of rest, they cannot accept nor can they be assigned to duty for the certificate holder.

-mini

 

No. It doesn't exist.

-mini

 

This is how I understand it. They must have a proscribed rest time every day. This must be assigned in advance. The period involved is up to you as long as it meets the required intervals. And, probably most important to you, no you can't call them and assign flying during this period. If you did, then it was not rest. The FAR says they can not be available for work/duty should the occasion arise. I understand that it is much cheaper to to have pilots on call 24/7. Most safety rules do involve an additional cost to flight ops costs. If it didn't there wouldn't be a need for the rule. Everyone would be doing it anyway.

Anyway, that is the way I would interpret rest according to their definition. If you must be available for duty if the occasion (on call/reserve) should arise then you are not at rest. This is different from duty. You can reference the Whitlow Letter to see that the FAA does not consider on call to be duty but it is not rest either and you must have the required rest within the preceding 24 hours. In most scenarios this makes on call a defacto duty period. They have elected not to call it duty but that does not alleviate the required rest rules.

If I am incorrect, I would like to learn the correct interpretation. The FAA has plenty on this topic and it seems fairly straight forward. However it is obviously not straightforward as there is so much disagreement over this. I don't think this is something the FAA has really pursued in the past but I think they will in the future with all of the fatigue issues the NTSB has been pushing.

I know that I wouldn't want to have to answer questions about this if I had an accident/incident. Also, could an insurance company refuse a claim on a multi million aircraft if they determined that the aircrafty was flown in willful or mistaken violation of the FARs? That is a legal question that I am wholly unqualified to answer.

Anyway, I sincerely hope that we can eventually put this issue to rest by documenting the available references. I doubt it, because there is a lot of profit motive in bending this rule as I see it so there will always be a counter argument. I am very interested in seeing the counter argument supported.

 

Boys its simple... If you are required to answer the phone when it rings then you are on duty. FARs say how long you can be on duty depending on your type of operation that you are a slave to. It's that simple! That is what the FARs say and it doesn't depend on who you ask. It depends on the reading education level that it is read! LOL!

 

It is simple....If you don't answer the phone, I don't need you. Thus, no job for you.

 

Jetupandgo, Do you really want pilots who are so willing to violate the FARs? How do you pick and choose which rules are important and which can be overlooked? If one of your pilots certificates are put in jeopardy, will you tell the FAA they had to do it or be fired? Or will you pretend to have no idea? Just wondering who gets left holding the bag if anything happens.

 

Upper Management doesn't want people to "violate" the FARs, but they do want people who will work within' the Grey Area to interpret them and accomplish the task of going from point A to point B.

"Duty time starts when your phone rings." -Local FSDO

But it doesn't really matter, imagine the guys that get an 8PM to 8AM shift of being on call. Are they sleeping all day long to be ready for the "potential" trip that they might get that night? Or are they up all after noon doing normal everyday chores and whatnot? End result is the same and generally these guys are just as tired as the day shift would have been.

 

So, I take it that you also do not give your pilots legal rest? And you are right, duty doesn't start til the phone call. What does that have to do with rest? Also, I would be careful. The FAA has already issued notice of enforcement about this issue. And NATA is upset because the FAA stated that the new emphasis on fatigue will include 135 ops.

I am really not trying to be confrontational. I just wonder how you can justify threatening to fire someone for refusing to violate the regs? not to mention, do you not worry that they would sue you? Like I said, I am no lawyer, but I would imagine that the FAA and the courts would not be kind to someone who insisted upon their employees violating FAA regs as a condition of their employment. One disgruntled employee could wreck the entire operation. That would be alot to worry about.

 

Hi MT.

I think we need a wording change in your statement. Being required to answer the phone is not duty. However, it is not rest either, and it is rest that the FAA cares about, not duty.

It would be easy for a company to legally require the pilot to be available 24/7 by phone, but when contacting the pilot the company would have to say something like "you are starting your 10 hours rest now, report to the airport 10 hours from now". During this assigned rest period the pilot cannot be required to be phone available.

Joe

Joe