rafdebden

I've searched the forum for all the posts related to this topic and never really got an answer. Lots of people arguing and pasting FAR 135.267 all over the place, but no clear answer.
FACT- ON Call is not Rest! Understood clearly.
Question. But is being On Call mean you're On Duty?

We are On Call for 12hr shifts. Whether we fly or not, we Always get 10hrs Continuous Uninterrupted Rest (Not On Call) every 24hrs. (On average we get called out maybe 50% of the time when On Call. Average trip is 6hrs of duty time for round trip from Home Base back to Home Base, sometime as much as 12hr duty time round trip, sometimes as little as 3hr, depends),

When ON Call, Once the pager goes off, at that time we then go ON Duty for 9 hours(if at towards the end of that 9hrs of ON Duty, a longer than normal trip pops up that even hints at coming close to our 14hr duty day, then that crew cannot take it. We're very conservative about that) After 9 hours the next shift goes On Call a few hour early if needed as long as it doesn't interrupts their rest period. If it does interfere with their rest, then we shut operations down until their 10 hour rest period has been completed.
Example: On Call Shift starts at 0600 to 1800. Pager goes off at 0600 we go On Duty at 0600 and OFF at 1500. If the pager doesn't go off until 1300, then we go On Duty at 1300 until 1800(end of being On Call anyways) followed by 10hrs of uninterrupted, Not On Call, Rest. If the pager doesn't go off until 1700(sucks, hour before we're off call, but oh well), then we go ON Duty at 1700 until we get back, then were OFF for 10 hours.
So, Bottom line. Is Being On Call mean you are On Duty? Our 10hrs of Rest Time is never in questioned. All of us pilots like this system, except for one jackass that says that once we go On Call we go On Duty whether we have a trip or not and is trying to screw things up for us pilots. The bosses don't care as long as it's legal and safe.. Some thoughts and more importantly some facts would help.
Thanks fellas

de727ups

"except for one jackass that says that once we go On Call we go On Duty whether we have a trip or not and is trying to screw things up for us pilots."

Well, he is simply wrong. If he can't figure it out, he won't last long. Tell him to talk to the POI and see what they say.

rafdebden

That's the point. Looks like the POI seems to be seeing it his way and agrees with him. We may be getting a change in policy because of it. The Jackass by the way is someone in a high position that the owner likes and respects, and is usually a nice guy, just bullhead when he wrong . He never flys, so it doesn't effect him, but we see no reason or no logic behind this push. Now as it is, when we are On Call we can do whatever we want, just as long as we can be ready to go at the airport in 20 minutes . We are salary by the way. Now they seem to think that since On Call means On Duty that we need to be at the airport all day for our 12 hour shift, doing nothing but waiting for our beeper, staring at the wall or play online poker in the hanger, all without a pay increase. But 12 hrs at the airport or 12 hrs at home On Call, what's the difference, it's still 12hrs, we can't take any trips realistically after the 9th hour. It can't be to save the 20min travel time to airport. Pax are never ready in 20min, not even ready within an hour. No advantage or logic to this at all. Just says that the FAA says On Call is On Duty so we need to change it. All of this will just go away if we can prove that On Call is not On Duty.

PW305

I'd write to the FAA for an interpretation... if you're right then you keep your good schedule. If you're wrong 90% of us will be out of business.

minitour

Well, a few problems.

The first problem is that the POI has zero legal authority to interpret regulations regarding rest, duty or the price of tea in china. He or she may think they do, but they do not. In the end, the POI can write a book to you telling you it's legal to be on call 24/7, but when the judge suspends your certificate he won't care if it was written on gold paper and blessed by the Pope himself.

The second problem is the "jackass"...sorta. Once you're on call, you are not at rest...but you are not on duty necessarily. You can be neither at rest nor on duty. One of those times would be travel (not local in nature).

However, "jackass" may have a valid concern.

Regarding this.

Remember, for 135 on-demand, the FAA doesn't care about, nor do they address "duty" in the regs (For pilots). All they care about is flight time (8 or 10 hours) and rest.

At all times, you must be able to look back 24 hours (from this second) and at some point see 10 consecutive hours of rest. Now, your company seems to do rest the proper way. On-call is not rest. Doing jepps is not rest. Cleaning the plane is not rest. Yadda yadda.

However, if you are required to be available for duty should duty arise (that may be word-for-word out of the legal interpretation) at (for example) 0600 in case a pager goes off, then the last time you may legally perform a duty for the certificate holder is 2000.

24 (hours /day) - 10 (hours rest) = 14 (hours available for a duty). 0600+1400=2000.

If the pager goes off at 1700, you need to be back in rest by 2000 regardless of where the pax are, where you are and what you're trying to accomplish. Late pax/cargo/bla bla, are not excuses for violating your rest regulation.

So, if that's where "jackass"'s concern is coming from, he's right...and so is the POI. The chief counsel (the ones with legal authority to interpret regulations that the judge will use to revoke/suspend your certificate) says so. I think the Whitlow letter covers some of it and there was also a 2009 interpretation that discussed it also.

Here ya go.
"Section 135.267(d) requires that flight crewmembers must have at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period preceding the planned completion time of an assignment made under § 135.267(b). A rest period must be (1) continuous, (2) determined prospectively (i.e., known in advance), and (3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise."

Emphasis mine.

From

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...2009/Berry.pdf

10 hours of rest within 24 hours of the planned completion time of the duty assignment. If you're on the pager, you are not at rest.

-mini

floydbird

If you are "on call" with a present responsibility to report to the airport when called, I think you are on duty.

Read this interpretation: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...009/Mayors.pdf

It interprets a rest/on call/duty situation that has some remarkable similarities to your scenario.

minitour

I stand corrected.

You are on duty according to that interpretation.

"We have consistently interpreted that if a standby or reserve pilot has a present responsibility to work if called, then he is on duty because he is not free from restraint."

Great find, floyd.

-mini

rafdebden

Although I like Minitour first version better, but Floydbird's letter seems pretty cut and dry. Then you get into the whole duty-to-be-available vs. duty-to-report debate. For a rule that I imagine was written to protect pilots from mgmt taking advanage of their pilots, the pilots in this case is still getting screwed. PW305 is right, lots of us our going to out of a job because of this. Found out that Jackass didn't push this, that the POI did, it just Jack wants us at the airport. I still don't understand the reasoning behide making us be at the airport now for 12hrs. 12hrs is 12hrs whether at home or the airport. Our raduis starts to reduce in size about half way through the shift. We'll see how this plays out..Thanks guys for the info.
check 6

minitour

What's to debate? If you aren't completely free from restraint (you can do whatever you like and be wherever you want), you are not at rest...and apparently on duty. Cut and dry.

-mini

PW305

I haven't been free from restraint for six years... I'm in serious violation, lol