Well I hate to be difficult about this, but let's say that you are completely off, not on call, not on duty, and do not have to report for duty until 0600. You are just plain OFF, you are technically at rest. But you aren't completely free from restraint during your rest time. For 8 hrs prior to starting you duty day at 0600 you can't drink alcohol. That's a restraint. Childish argument I know. But you are right, it's seems pretty cut and dry. But my point is that a lot of operations have on call pilots and from the sounds of it it's illegal. Only way I see this working is if we hire a couple more guys and go to 8hr shifts, but that won't happen. It looks if we are going to be On Duty the whole time then we have to be at the airport for 12 straight hours. That's the point now, I really don't see that logic. OnCall/OnDuty at home or OnDuty at airport. It's still 12hours. We'll just have to wait and see why he wants it that way. PW305 how do you guys work it? Maybe we can adopt the same system? Thanks for the info fellas.

 

Our plane operates two crews on 8/6 rotations (sort of). When I'm on, I'm away from home, for 8 days at a time. Normally that means I'm in a hotel and...prior to my "responsibility" period for 8 hours, I have to lay off the sauce.

Guess what! On the 6 days off, I still can't smoke weed (if I were so inclined...and I'm not) because I'd probably **** a positive when my 8 days came up and/or I got popped for a random.

That's a restraint.

I guess I'm never at rest, even when I'm at home layin pipe to the wife?

They do and it is.

Someone here is probably a CP or DO and will come in saying that if they had to do it "legally" they'd go out of business. Well, then go out of business. If you can't afford to operate legally, safely and ethically, go out of business. Please. That is neither an excuse nor my problem.

Our plane is on one of the real bottom feeder's certificate and we can still find a way to operate legally. I'm sure others can, too. It really does take more time to sit down and try to find loopholes in all of the rules to exploit than to just follow them.

Okay, sorry...that got ranty.

I don't see a problem with 12 or 14 hour duty periods. Just because you get a call at hour 11, that doesn't mean you can't do something productive.

Let's say your duty period was scheduled 0600-1800. You get a call at 1700 for an 1800 departure.

You can't file a flight plan, pre-flight the plane, fuel it, get the weather ready, stock it, pull the charts, get a clearance and program the FMS?

Sure you can.

Then when the next group shows up at 1800, you can have everything ready for them so they can take the immediate departure.

If it were me running the show, I'd do 14 hour shifts with 1 hour overlaps at the beginning and end of the shift for this very reason. Do 4 of those a week and take the next 4 days off...rinse, repeat.

Good luck with the schedule change/update. Change can be difficult, but remember that the FAA will slap the company on the wrist and suspend your certificate if you violate rest rules. Better to be legal than sorry.

-mini

 

We don't schedule our rest periods, or anything else. Our POI knows this.

I have heard of other FSDO's cracking down on the 'look-back' rest/duty issue which, internet forums aside, would totally reshape the 135 world if enforced.

 

Your problem is not with the reg interpretations. Those are what protect you from having to take that 1700 call-out after being on-call all day

Your problem is with your employer. I'm sure the POI could care less where you spend your on-duty/on-call hours, just so long as you get adequate rest prior to duty on. Your employer is attempting to shift blame to cover HIS (stupid sounding) decision to change policy

Show him you can get another job that does not require you to stare at the hangar walls. Just because on-call is not rest doesn't mean the FAA requires you to sit ready reserve. Your employer does, for some elusive (probably economic) reason.

The company cannot restrain you during a rest period. The FAA requires the restraints referred to, via reg.

 

Hi!

I was 121 and we were on call 24/7. I was once on call for 240 hours, and then got a trip. The POI/FSDO/regional office knew all about it.

There are STILL -91 ops flying charters on -135 certifiicates, and their POIs/FSDOs know what is going on.

What is technically "legal" and what the companies can do, with the approval of the local FAA personnel, are two different things.

The -135 Duty/Rest re-write was done a number of years ago, and then shelved, because it would have cost too much money to someone....same reason the 121 Rest/Duty/Flight regs are still under review right now.

cliff
LFW

 

Oh I agree! I just wasn't able to put the words together to make sense, so I had to tell a story.

What you wrote....perfectly said.

We've been over this before.

1) The POI/FSDO/Regional office don't have the authority to interpret regs. Just because they won't enforce it, that doesn't make it legal.

2) That was your fault for accepting an assignment after being on call for 240 hours. How could anyone in their right mind consider themselves "rested" after being on call for so long?

If you're on a 135 certificate and following the 135 regs and 135 certificate holder's company manual(s) (including operational control), what's the big deal? Again, the same thing with the POI/FSDO

Same with the local FAA personnel. They can approve whatever they like. You can still get violated for it.

The regs, as written, just need to be enforced first. Then let's see how things are with rest. I couldn't care less if it cost a company too much money to continue in business. If you can't afford to operate your company legally, then it's time to go bye-bye.

-mini

 

Hi!

-Mini. I agree w/ all that you said.
To work at the company, all pilots had to do 24/7 on call. All the companies in the same environment were ALL doing 24/7 on call. The FAA knew, and would do nothing. They interpreted the regs as either duty, or rest. The said there was NO on call status in the regs.

The -91 I was talking about is straight -91. -91 records, training, duty rules, etc., etc. and they fly paid charters on the side. Op Ctrl is -91.

cliff
LFW

 

Ah. You're talking about someone with no Air Carrier certificate taking money to fly joe six pack from ABC to DEF in a (insert aircraft)?

Yeah. That I have a huge problem with. It's hard enough for us to fly enough hours to make the owner money (on a 135 certificate). With the "illegal" charters being flown, it sure doesn't make it easier.

Quite honestly, it disgusts me.

-mini

 

I was just clarifying things, for the record. Seems many people will grasp at anything to justify violating this reg. Don't want to feed their fire.

Thanks for the kind words. I always appreciate your posts as well.

 

Being a 121 driver,but currently on a 135 gig, what is or is there such thing as a "soft contact"? I get a text mssg well and I do mean well within my rest period. I have been told this is a soft contact? ?and that it's does not count as an interruption of rest!