Accelerate/Stop for Part 23
08-23-2006, 05:58 AM
#1
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Accelerate/Stop for Part 23
Here is one of those things where I have seen FSDOs and Regions have differing interpertations on.
I have heard some FSDOs/Regions want aircraft that are certified under Part 23, such as a Baron, to be able to meet the accelerate/stop requirements on a given runway in order to operate from it.
What say people here.
PS--If you were not aware, there can be differences in opinions concerning FARs and the 8400.10 between the regions, as well as FSDOs within a region. To some extent, people within a FSDO.
I have heard some FSDOs/Regions want aircraft that are certified under Part 23, such as a Baron, to be able to meet the accelerate/stop requirements on a given runway in order to operate from it.
What say people here.
PS--If you were not aware, there can be differences in opinions concerning FARs and the 8400.10 between the regions, as well as FSDOs within a region. To some extent, people within a FSDO.
08-24-2006, 02:22 PM
#2
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Well, my opinion is if it's under 135 then all aircraft have to follow the performance requirements set forth under this part. This includes the length of the runway must at least be equal to the accel to stop distance, if not then you can't use that runway.
Of course, why would you want to do otherwise? Never know when Mr. Murphy will show his ugly mug.
Of course, why would you want to do otherwise? Never know when Mr. Murphy will show his ugly mug.
08-25-2006, 04:51 AM
#3
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Where in the regs???
Ziggy: First off, Im not picking a fight!!!
That said, where in Part 135 does it address takeoff and landing performance criteria for Part 23 airplanes? Well, 135.399 talks about the requirements for SMALL NONTRANSPORT CATEGORY AIRCRAFT. However, when you read the reg, it is based on 135.169, which deals with AIRCRAFT, EXCLUDING ANY PILOT SEAT OF TEN OR MORE PASSENGER SEATS.
This would exculde a Baron, 310, Duke, 421, and a host of other Part 23 airplanes.
Can someone show in the regs where it states that a Part 23 airplane with less than ten passenger seats must meet accelerate/stop performance?
That said, where in Part 135 does it address takeoff and landing performance criteria for Part 23 airplanes? Well, 135.399 talks about the requirements for SMALL NONTRANSPORT CATEGORY AIRCRAFT. However, when you read the reg, it is based on 135.169, which deals with AIRCRAFT, EXCLUDING ANY PILOT SEAT OF TEN OR MORE PASSENGER SEATS.
This would exculde a Baron, 310, Duke, 421, and a host of other Part 23 airplanes.
Can someone show in the regs where it states that a Part 23 airplane with less than ten passenger seats must meet accelerate/stop performance?
Last edited by GauleyPilot; 08-25-2006 at 05:02 AM. Reason: additional question
08-25-2006, 09:08 PM
#4
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Gauley: My reply was in no way intent on being condescending. If it came across that way I do appologize.
I've found the confusing point, it took me awhile to find it.
135.169 mentioned in .399 is only applicable to turbopropeller-powered small aircraft. Since the aircraft you mentioned are non-turbine aircraft, .169 does not apply. But you still have to comply with the T/O and Landing limitations stated in their AFM as directed by the rest of .399.
I've found the confusing point, it took me awhile to find it.
135.169 mentioned in .399 is only applicable to turbopropeller-powered small aircraft. Since the aircraft you mentioned are non-turbine aircraft, .169 does not apply. But you still have to comply with the T/O and Landing limitations stated in their AFM as directed by the rest of .399.
08-26-2006, 04:44 AM
#5
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No Offense at all
Ziggy:
You did not sound bad at all. I just didn't want you to think that I was. Believe me I am not trying to cause trouble.
Fresh from faa.gov------
135.169 Additional airworthiness requirements.
(b) No person may operate a reciprocating-engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 10 seats or more unless it is type certificated—
(1) In the transport category;
(2) Before July 1, 1970, in the normal category and meets special conditions issued by the Administrator for airplanes intended for use in operations under this part;
(3) Before July 19, 1970, in the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23;
(4) In the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in appendix A;
(5) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(a) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41;
(6) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(b) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41; or
(Non germain parts eliminated for space in this post)
§ 135.399 Small nontransport category airplane performance operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate a reciprocating engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that is certificated under §135.169(b) (2), (3), (4), (5), or (6) unless that person complies with the takeoff weight limitations in the approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part, and, if the airplane is certificated under §135.169(b) (4) or (5) with the landing weight limitations in the Approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part.
(b) Talks about landing only. Look it up at faa.gov. (b) is the last paragraph in .399
I don't see anything in 135.399 that deals with anything other than aircraft that have ten or more passenger seats--recip or turboprop. I know where you are coming from, but when you read the reg again, you will see that it makes no mention of anything other than aircraft covered by 135.169. The key word is the OR between reciprocating and turbopropeller. You can have a piston engine airplane covered by 135.169.
You did not sound bad at all. I just didn't want you to think that I was. Believe me I am not trying to cause trouble.
Fresh from faa.gov------
135.169 Additional airworthiness requirements.
(b) No person may operate a reciprocating-engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 10 seats or more unless it is type certificated—
(1) In the transport category;
(2) Before July 1, 1970, in the normal category and meets special conditions issued by the Administrator for airplanes intended for use in operations under this part;
(3) Before July 19, 1970, in the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23;
(4) In the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in appendix A;
(5) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(a) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41;
(6) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(b) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41; or
(Non germain parts eliminated for space in this post)
§ 135.399 Small nontransport category airplane performance operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate a reciprocating engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that is certificated under §135.169(b) (2), (3), (4), (5), or (6) unless that person complies with the takeoff weight limitations in the approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part, and, if the airplane is certificated under §135.169(b) (4) or (5) with the landing weight limitations in the Approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part.
(b) Talks about landing only. Look it up at faa.gov. (b) is the last paragraph in .399
I don't see anything in 135.399 that deals with anything other than aircraft that have ten or more passenger seats--recip or turboprop. I know where you are coming from, but when you read the reg again, you will see that it makes no mention of anything other than aircraft covered by 135.169. The key word is the OR between reciprocating and turbopropeller. You can have a piston engine airplane covered by 135.169.
Last edited by GauleyPilot; 08-26-2006 at 05:19 AM.
08-26-2006, 09:27 AM
#6
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This is what I hate about the FAR's, they don't write it in plain English. It's all in legalese. My thinking is the "or" with the statement about turbopropeller-powered small aircraft being certificated under .169 does not apply to reciprocating aircraft. So you disregard that tid-bit. I do think that the rest of the paragraph applies to the reciprocating aircraft.
I know other colleagues and I have had other discussions about how to properly interpret the FAR's because of confusing wording.
I know other colleagues and I have had other discussions about how to properly interpret the FAR's because of confusing wording.
08-26-2006, 11:13 AM
#7
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Recip Engines
BUT----135.169 DOES apply to recip engines, read my previous post.
135.399 deals with aircraft certified under 135.169--whether they be piston OR turbine, because .169 deals with both. Read the very first sentence in 135.169 (b) and recips are the first engines to be mentioned.
.169 airplanes have 10 or more passenger seats, not counting pilot seats.
Therefore, a 5 passenger seat Baron does not really fit under 135.169, and therefore does not fit under 135.399.
I have underlined where I am talking about below in my next post.
135.399 deals with aircraft certified under 135.169--whether they be piston OR turbine, because .169 deals with both. Read the very first sentence in 135.169 (b) and recips are the first engines to be mentioned.
.169 airplanes have 10 or more passenger seats, not counting pilot seats.
Therefore, a 5 passenger seat Baron does not really fit under 135.169, and therefore does not fit under 135.399.
I have underlined where I am talking about below in my next post.
Last edited by GauleyPilot; 08-26-2006 at 11:26 AM.
08-26-2006, 11:15 AM
#8
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135.169 Additional airworthiness requirements.
(b) No person may operate a reciprocating-engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 10 seats or more unless it is type certificated—
(1) In the transport category;
(2) Before July 1, 1970, in the normal category and meets special conditions issued by the Administrator for airplanes intended for use in operations under this part;
(3) Before July 19, 1970, in the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23;
(4) In the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in appendix A;
(5) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(a) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41;
(6) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(b) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41; or
(Non germain parts eliminated for space in this post)
§ 135.399 Small nontransport category airplane performance operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate a reciprocating engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that is certificated under §135.169(b) (2), (3), (4), (5), or (6) unless that person complies with the takeoff weight limitations in the approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part, and, if the airplane is certificated under §135.169(b) (4) or (5) with the landing weight limitations in the Approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part.
(b) Talks about landing only. Look it up at faa.gov.
(b) is the last paragraph in .399
Where does it talk about aircraft that are not covered by 135.169 being requred to meet accel/stop.
(b) No person may operate a reciprocating-engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 10 seats or more unless it is type certificated—
(1) In the transport category;
(2) Before July 1, 1970, in the normal category and meets special conditions issued by the Administrator for airplanes intended for use in operations under this part;
(3) Before July 19, 1970, in the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23;
(4) In the normal category and meets the additional airworthiness standards in appendix A;
(5) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(a) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41;
(6) In the normal category and complies with section 1.(b) of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 41; or
(Non germain parts eliminated for space in this post)
§ 135.399 Small nontransport category airplane performance operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate a reciprocating engine or turbopropeller-powered small airplane that is certificated under §135.169(b) (2), (3), (4), (5), or (6) unless that person complies with the takeoff weight limitations in the approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part, and, if the airplane is certificated under §135.169(b) (4) or (5) with the landing weight limitations in the Approved Airplane Flight Manual or equivalent for operations under this part.
(b) Talks about landing only. Look it up at faa.gov.
(b) is the last paragraph in .399
Where does it talk about aircraft that are not covered by 135.169 being requred to meet accel/stop.
Last edited by GauleyPilot; 08-26-2006 at 11:19 AM.
08-26-2006, 04:18 PM
#9
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This conversation has certainly challenged me to examine this reg in detail. And I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
.399(b) has no baring on this topic of conversation because it only deals with .169 certificated aircraft.
(a) however, the topic of this discussion is where the accel/stop question comes into play.
My conclusion is this, barons and other small aircraft both single and multi non-turbine aircraft are used. So I am certain they are covered somewhere within 135 as to how much weight they are allowed to operate with.
One part I was looking at was 135.397 although that is for small transport category aircraft. My only question on this topic is what is the definition of transport vs non-transport. I've tried searches in both the FAR book and online and haven't turned up anything I would call a definition.
If the definition for transport category aircraft is an aircraft that is certified under part 25, then I would conclude that part 135.399 has to cover non-transport category aircraft or aircraft certified under part 23.
.399(b) has no baring on this topic of conversation because it only deals with .169 certificated aircraft.
(a) however, the topic of this discussion is where the accel/stop question comes into play.
My conclusion is this, barons and other small aircraft both single and multi non-turbine aircraft are used. So I am certain they are covered somewhere within 135 as to how much weight they are allowed to operate with.
One part I was looking at was 135.397 although that is for small transport category aircraft. My only question on this topic is what is the definition of transport vs non-transport. I've tried searches in both the FAR book and online and haven't turned up anything I would call a definition.
If the definition for transport category aircraft is an aircraft that is certified under part 25, then I would conclude that part 135.399 has to cover non-transport category aircraft or aircraft certified under part 23.
08-26-2006, 05:47 PM
#10
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Ziggy=thinking person
Ziggy:
Transport Category= aircraft certified under Part 25
Normal Category=aircraft certified under Part 23
135.399 states that it applies to any aircraft covered by 135.169 (b)1-6---Airplanes, either piston or turbine, that have a passenger seating capacity of ten or more that are either transport category, or normal category with various stipulations. They could be either transport category, or normal category with stipulations on which date in 1970 it was certified on.
Read 135.169(b)1-6, then 135.399. Then go back and read .169
Note that both regs deal only with SMALL airplanes--Less than 12,500 MGTOW.
Another thing to consider is that in .399, there is no "airplane" after the phrase "reciprocating engine". If it read "No person may.....a reciprocating engine airplane OR a turbopropeller powered airpane certified under 135.169 (b)..... THEN I WOULD AGREE TOTALLY WITH YOU.
This is where I figured this discussion would end up. As I said in the beginning, it depends on your region/FSDO.
Are you as supprised as I am that we have held this discussion on our own????????
Transport Category= aircraft certified under Part 25
Normal Category=aircraft certified under Part 23
135.399 states that it applies to any aircraft covered by 135.169 (b)1-6---Airplanes, either piston or turbine, that have a passenger seating capacity of ten or more that are either transport category, or normal category with various stipulations. They could be either transport category, or normal category with stipulations on which date in 1970 it was certified on.
Read 135.169(b)1-6, then 135.399. Then go back and read .169
Note that both regs deal only with SMALL airplanes--Less than 12,500 MGTOW.
Another thing to consider is that in .399, there is no "airplane" after the phrase "reciprocating engine". If it read "No person may.....a reciprocating engine airplane OR a turbopropeller powered airpane certified under 135.169 (b)..... THEN I WOULD AGREE TOTALLY WITH YOU.
This is where I figured this discussion would end up. As I said in the beginning, it depends on your region/FSDO.
Are you as supprised as I am that we have held this discussion on our own????????
Last edited by GauleyPilot; 08-26-2006 at 06:16 PM.
