I don't buy it personally. When I instructed, I had 15 students, and only one ever went all the way(He was working at Ford, and retired soon after and got his Comm, then CFI.) The rest of them were in it for fun. I never forced anyone into it etc....

When I first started, yes I used the "list" to call out prospective students and see if we could get them to come back out to the airport, but honestly, I got not a single one of those folks out. The rest were literally walk-in's. I knew ahead of time that it was going to be that way, but I went ahead and called people anyways.

Now the university programs, if they are promising blah blah, this-and-that, then yes it's a scam, but you can't group everyone and every operation into one basket.

I'm not trying to argue that the only way is instructing. Go fly pipe, traffic watch, wildlife spotting, banners, something. Just don't hurt the industry as a whole by paying to sit right seat when you could be paid to sit in any seat.

Would you go and pay someone to work in an auto dealership to learn how to sell cars or fix them? No. So why would you do it in aviation? The reason I ask is because I spent 9 years in the auto industry, as an Auto Tech for dealerships. My first year I made about $30k. My last year I made $75k. I started at the bottom, and worked my way up. I never had to pay to work, as a matter of fact, I usually got paid decently to work. The guys that went to WyoTech and UTI made the same dollar starting out and topped out at the same level that I did. There was ZERO benefit from them paying to learn versus learning on the job. See my point now. You gain nothing from PFJ/PFT other than being out a few thousand dollars for time in your logbook that will be usless when all you have is 500hrs, half of which is in 172's and PA44's. You are still useless until you have enough experience to be employable by a 135 operation. And from what I have seen at 121 regional interviews, Your experience doesn't matter as long as you have the numbers they are looking for, so again, the money was wasted. The difference is now you have lowered the bar for starting wage because the companies now know that you have paid for the majority of your time so why should they bother paying you a decent wage.

First five was just a number. i have sent out multiple resumes and walked in multiple resumes. And MS i have the drive, i want the job, there just arent any in my area. i have excepted the fact that it may take a couple more years of flight instructing on the side to get a job. Especially in these times. I agree with you guys on PTF it has had a very bad effect on the career. Anyway i appreciate everyones opinion.

Sounds like it's time for a move. You can still make an impression over the phone. Call up a few places where you wouldn't mind living.

So, how many of those jobs can you get with under 500 hours?

Network and be the guy who got hired with less than posted minimums. Thats how I got my current job. Quit it with the excuses. They wanted more multi than what I had, and I just met the total time. The traffic watch out here hires at 250. The banner tows out here hire at 250 with 25hrs tail wheel.

if you have the money go for PFT. I've seen way to many guys twice as far in there careers then the one who went the traditional route. You need to look out for yourself. Everyone here will say your bring the industry down. If you don't do someone else will and will be flying 121 before you.Every industry is paying less because of cheaper labor. In today's environment you need what ever edge you can get so you can rise to the top faster. But I would wait till hiring picks up so you don't end up on the street with no job to transition to when your contract is up. once retirement start accelerating I would head to a PFT program. On the flip side one my not need to do PFT if the great pilot shortage happens that everyone has been waiting for. Botom line is wait 6 month to a year then reevalutae the industry and then make a decision. retirements are starting to happen which will casue regionals to be hiring in masses shortly.

You are no different then a SCAB! The only difference is the picket line you cross, no one is able to walk it everyday!

The bolded part is funny. There is, and never will be a pilot shortage, EVER! People have been trying to sell than for the last 40 years! Gawd you guys are clueless!


This thread goes from, "There is too many people and not enough jobs!" to, "Pilot shortage on the horizon, everyone get thei resume ready!" But if there is thousands on the street who are qualified, shoulden't the pilot shortage use those guys up first? Leaving someone who used PFT/PFJ with thier junk in their hand and a huge loan to pay off?

Thanks, I take your comments as a compliment. If you feel better calling me a scab because I support anyone that wants to buy a 100 block in a skydiving turboprop, then go a head.

You have no clue, and no experince to draw from. It's obvious with your posts. I hate to say in, but you'll probably become another Capt. Renslow, just barely making it through your entire career untill something bad happens. And when you get furloughed from that big shiney jet at a regional making $18k a year living with mom and dad, you'll have no other flying to fall back on, because you won't have any CFI certificates, and all the jump planes are looking for fresh guys with low time so they'll stick around for a while.

Like I said, you just don't get it.

Exactly. When I applied for my current job, they wanted somebody with citation time, or at least some turbojet time. I had none, but applied anyway. I got the job, despite them having 300+ resumes the first day, and so many the second day that the email server crashed. How did I do it? By networking and staying persistent. It still amazes me how many folks in this industry just don't get it.

Yeah, well realize this:
There are lots of people like mshunter and myself that will immediately shred resumes from PFJ "pilots" like yourself when asked for input from our CPs. Your strategy might get you on with the 121 ops, but it's VERY heavily frowned upon in 135/91.

I do get it and I understand your point of view. Do you get upset with the kids whose parents pay for the kids entire college education? Its really the same concept. I just don't see the issue with someone wanting to buy a small block of time to get some real expirence. Had I had the chance to fly 100 hours of turboprop after I got my CFI 12 years ago I would have jump all over the opportunity. I guess that makes me a scab.

You can't please everyone in your career.

This goes against everything someone who cares about a career they have 12 years vested in would think. I pull out the BS card.

No one is trying to please anyone but the ones at the end of the line.

BTW, I did some searching of your posts. Your full of it, and have no clue. You lie on these forums!

Someone with 12 years in the industry and you need multi instruction!? Take your BS back to the flight sim side of things. I'm sure you have a ton of Flight Sim vids on Youtube for everyone to see you making that awsome landing in a 747 at KiaTak don't ya!

And back dating an endorsement on a napkin! Dude, thats just wrong!


Something isn't addin up about you at all.

P.S. I don't get upset at parents who pay for college. I just wish my parents had the money to pay for mine. Some don't have it so easy, and have to earn what they have. And some get mommy and daddy to buy them their way into the cockpit of a Falcon so they can put on a resume that they have turbine time with only 500hrsTT. Any decent (read as a company who takes care of their people and equipment) 135/91 operator will not hire someone without an internal recomendation. Sure, like some of your posts read, you could go work for Mesa/Mesaba/Colgan/GoJet and get into the big shiney jet. But you will also be in line with a huge amount of others who are just a number, and are on the verge of going BK if that next contract doesn't come through. Or you could get furloughed and be out of work for months on end.


The guy who I am following in his foot steps used to be Unocal's Chief Pilot. He came to work on a monday and they told him they were selling the airplanes. They paid him for the rest of the year, and gave him a severence package. He made a few phone calls and was hired by the end of the day and got a BBJ type out of it. He worked for that company for 7 years and got tired of the schedule. He took a job with a smaller operator and is now their CP, flys when he wants to, makes a healthy salary, and will retire in a few years. He flight instructed untill he got to 500hrs, then did VFR frieght in AZ, then worked 121, then did 135/91 for the remainder of his career. It can be and still is done that way. Nothing good comes without great sacrafice and hard work. Buying 100hrs of turbine time will still get you no closer than the next guy who has way more total time. Remember, everyone didn't start aviation at the same time you did(which is why you lack experince, it shows), so there are guys who have been doing it way longer, and have thier resumes in the same stack as yours. GET A CLUE!

Please PM me I can show you all my rating and employer. you got questions I got answers. While you sit with your head up high because knock on doors the rest are building seniority while you wish you were flying 121. I got my CFI in 1998 and I have kept it up ever since. When I post I'm talking the way I see it. The back dating was to help someone cover their ass. While you rub elbow with 91 I'm working yo get to the majors. And if I do land on the street I will walk into one of your 135 companies and take a job flying right next door. hell, maybe the CP can sign me off on the cocktail napkin the we will be using at the local saloon. Let not remember while we are arguing here. PFT will always live on while I never used them very few will frown upon it. If you were a CFI with 1500/200 or 800/200 turbine the guy flight turbine would most likely get the job base off his experience the the CFI guy. There are 1000's of guys right now flying that all utilize PFT to get on and they are making livings. PFT doesn't devalue your income. Airlines it self are doing it because of revenues and increase competition. But I guess you must had been sleeping that day in economics class. Oh and one more thing is my little rother post on this board with my credentials because his email is excepted and he's just breaking in to this industry. hopefully he will do PFT when he's ready to step up and want to fly 121. And I'm happy you got your contacts. We have ours to. You don't think that we drink in hotel lobbies every night rubbing elbow with other pilots. This is a small community. Its not hard to get someone to walk in your resume.

Thanks for reminding me of the quote. That's classic.
I agree, I would write a new endorsement out on a cocktail napkin and back date it. Don't forget to tape that baby in the back of the book and call it a day! I wouldn't even tell my student what I was doing.

Now, if you spoke to the fed's already, you may as well use that cocktail napkin for your beer. You will be drinking many my friend

Nice work outing the poser mshunter! In addition to his posting history, something just doesn't seem right about the way he writes... Almost as if he's very young. I think you're onto something regarding the flight simulator wannabe. Probably lives in his Mom's basement too.

With your post count, the PM function should work both ways.

"He worked for that company for 97 years and got tired of the schedule. He took a job with a smaller operator and is now their CP, flys when he wants to, makes a healthy salary, and will retire in a few years."

97 years, takes another job, and will retire in a few years?? I'd be tired too :D

This IS a small community, and you might consider how your attitude might affect your chances of having someone carry that resume. If I found out an applicant had written this post, the resume would be in the trash can NOW! I'm not much of a grammar nazi on these forums, but if I read a resume written as HORRIBLY as your post, it too would be trashed.... well, now that I think about it, I would probably pass it around so others could get a laugh at it.

You say you got your CFI in 1998 and TWELVE years later you haven't gotten ATP times?? From my calculations, that is less than 100 hours per year or 2-3 private IFR students. If you could not drum up a couple students a year, just how hard were you trying? I got my CFI only one year before (you claim) you did. At that time, all the CFIs I knew only instructed a year or so before moving on with 1000-1500TT. Something doesn't fit.

The PFT places I know of all let idiots pay to be the SIC in an aircraft that can be certified for single pilot operations. Again, if I am looking at a resume and see 100 hours SIC PFT/PFJ in a B1900, that tells me two things. First, the PIC of the 1900 is used to flying single pilot (or worse). Second, the applicant is willing to take shortcuts. I don't like flying with people who take shortcuts.

Lastly, for your own good in this industry or any other,



Don't Post Drunk!

Opps. Typo! Proof reading takes a back seat when I am irritated.:)

It's called being "realistic." And no, I don't believe that what you posted is realistic, maybe in 2007, but not now. Not everyone can have the "path to success" that you've had.

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/images/smilies/bs.gif

It's called having patients and perseverance. Look at companies like Ameriflight, Flight Express, etc. They will hire you with 135 mins. I have a friend, who through networking, got hired to fly 135VFR cargo in Alaska. I have another friend who got hired at Ameriflight with 1350TT and 105 multi because he had two internal recommendations, and his friend was looked past who had 2100tt and 500+ multi. This industry is all about contacts, not what you have on your resume. 9 of 10 times when you see a position posted at another company on one of the internet pay sites, the position has already been filled before the post goes up. And it's all because of networking. PFJ/PFT is just a way for companies to #1: Take advantage of people who don't know any better, and #2: Quench some thirst for some SJS (Shiney Jet Syndrome).

Name me one company that will hire a guy to sit right seat in a Lear/Falcon with 700tt?


Bottom line, you can do it the expensive way or you can do it the easy way.

Expensive way: Go to a PFJ/PFT place and spend $35k for 250hrs of right seat time for an SIC "Type" rating (look at the regs, you don't need an SIC for right seat, just a private pilot).

Easy way: Do some instructing/flying pipe/Glider towing/Banner towing/Traffic watch and build up some hours, meet a few people along the way, earn a paycheck, and move up.

The bottom line is you are still going to have to meet the mins of the job posting, even if you do have 750hrstt and 500 of which you paid to throw gear in a Falcon20. Most companies require 2000TT to be SIC in anything without props, and the same to be PIC in something with props. And it's usually not their requirement, it's the insurance. And flying SIC in something like a Navajo is only going to be a PFT program. Those kinds of airplanes simply don't generate enough profit to afford to pay an SIC, let alone pay the PIC. This myth that some PFJ/PFT will get you there faster is the same as the myth that doing an RJ course is going to get you an airline job.


My boss had to pull strings to get me insured in the airplane, but he got it. Do you think he would have done that for some schmo off the street when he could have easily hired someone who the insurance would have not batted an eye at? I am not any kind of exception ownnav, I am what is happening in the industry RIGHT NOW. It's nothing more than a fact. Would I call it "the path to success" like you have? No, I call it doing what it takes to get a job, IN ANY ENVIRONMENT. Networking works in a good/bad job environment. PFT/PFJ will only work at places that I would rather not work. And when you get there, you'll figure out the same thing.

You can't have it both ways, MS. Either the time is valuable, and you see EJI FO's as a threat to the industry, or it's not valuable and they're just wasting their money. Which one is it?

Both ways? Do we need to go around this bush again? I just re-read my post, and I don't see it as looking like both ways. Am I missing something?

That's the impression I got, based off your earlier statement.

I think I can see where this is going, and really, comparing a Gulfstream type program to a cargo FO program is really comparing apples and oranges. Guys do the cargo FO program so they can build time without taking anyone's job, yet, it's as if you lump them all into one category, with the ones who obviously are paying for a job by slapping them with the PFT label.

Cargo Fo's and 121 FO's, it's all the same. It de-values the workers in the entire profession. It doesn't matter if it takes someones jobs when you start out making less than poverty wages, and thats not what I am worried about anyways.

You do admit they're not taking anyone's jobs in the cargo FO program, yet somehow it doesn't matter. Nice.

Where in my posts do I say it's o.k. to take a cargo FO's job? You completely miss my point. That's not what this is about. This is about PFT/PFJ. If you are refering to something like Airnets FO program, do you honestly think that logging SIC time in a Barron is worth payin any amount of money for? It's a single pilot airplane! What are you getting at. Quit fishing!

Which cargo FO's job did freightdog1369 take? You know AMF would fly that plane single pilot without him. If you want to argue the legality of logging that time, maybe your friend at Ameriflight can show you where it is in their ops specs. The FAA signed off on it, it's legal.

Well I must say, you've done a very good job of steering this thread away from where it was headed. A few things I'd like to point out

#1: SIC time in a Barron/Cheiftain is worthless.

#2: PFT/PFJ does nothing but devalue the people who work in this industry

#3: Paying for a job vs. getting paid for a job; what would you rather have.

FlyJSH said it best(I think it was him), how would you feel if you were furloughed because someone was willing to pay $100k for a PIC slot in one of AmFlights Metro's? You are off on some completely different tangent. So, you go ahead and take that SIC Chieftain time to your next company and tell me what it gets you. Legal and moral are always two completely different thigs BTW. I don't care if their Op Spec allows the logging of SIC time for any of their aircraft. I haven't looked at it, nor do I care to. It's the pricipal of the thing. I don't care what company it's for either. Your still trolling for something. Quit beating around the bush.


Look at the poll results of what your peers think of it.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ha...t-say-you.html

I'll address your statements on Fo's driving down regional wages once you acknowledge that they do get jobs. How can they have an effect on wages if they don't get jobs in the first place?

As far as your poll goes, once again you've lumped them all into one. However, I've seen another poll that separates the cargo FO gigs from the Gulfstream type. Maybe you should look that one up instead of starting a poll with a leading question. That one actually got a lot of responses. You got told you're "beating a dead horse."

[quote=fr8dog1369;844199]


You two just don't get it. And unfortunatly, you never will either. Someday, someone down the line will offer you a job, and find out about the PFT/PFJ in your logbook, and you'll get it then.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/pa...ch-job-il.html

Not only will you gain experince, but you'll earn a paycheck doint it. And, only 350tt required.

You need to learn a little more about OpSpecs. OpSpecs cannot "allow" one to log flight time. 14 CFR 61.51 does that.

61.51 does make an allowance for a pilot, when a required crew-member, to log SIC time. Things like actually acting as SIC of a two pilot airplane, Part 135 Pax carrying IFR operations and safety pilots come to mind. Sitting in the right seat of a single pilot aircraft carrying cargo under Part 135 does not make one a required crew-member.

Log what you want, but the OpSpecs can't change that.

My offer still stands if someone wants to PFT/PFJ. I'll let you sit in the left seat of a jjjjjjjjjjet and push all the buttons you want for the right price.

-mini

The FAA giveth and the FAA taketh away. They're regulations, not the bible, you can add to and take away, sometimes the changes aren't applicable to everyone, thus you have ops specs.

If you click on the link, it will tell you "sorry, job no longer available." Did you notice the date on that thread?

I'm thinking freightdog1369 is right about you. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt for a while there, but this is getting ridiculous.

Awwwww, how sweet of you.:rolleyes: The purpose was to show that low time jobs are out there. But I guess you just can't educate some people.

Valiant effort, but you're wasting your time. People either have what it takes to make it on their own in this industry or they don't. Of those that don't, some people simply have the money (or access to it) to buy their way up the ladder. There isn't a single thing either one of us can do about it and you're never going to convince them it's wrong on an internet message board.

It's like ****ing into the wind. No matter what, yer gunna get wet!