Are CFI Jobs Becoming a Pyramid Scheme?
03-20-2015, 12:17 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: ERJ, CA
Posts: 718
Originally Posted by bigboeings
Ive never understood why people say it takes so much $$$ to become a pilot. I started to fly in 1990 at a 141 school. It took me 6 months and $13000, which included housing. Adjusted for inflation thats around 23K today. That's not too bad.
03-20-2015, 04:42 PM
#34
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
To the OP:
CFIing at large flight schools that cater only to students seeking professional* ratings has ALWAYS been a pyramid scheme. With the exception of roughly 2006-2008, 1200-2000 hours were required to be competitive at the regional level. Now, the law mandates what was the natural order.
To get a CFI typically takes about 300 hours of which roughly 200 was dual received (assuming he got IFR and Comm AMEL along the way). Back then, at 300 hours our newly minted CFI needed another 1000 hours to begin to be competitive. That meant he needed to instruct 5 zero to heroes. When those 5 got their CFIs, they each needed 5 students or 25 total.
Soooo.... Let's take a trip in the Wayback Machine..... (cue wavy line screen affect)
The year is 1989. A 22 year old and growing regional airline that has high standards is having some trouble finding qualified pilots. The solution? Train the pilots ourselves. So the owners of said regional buys a little 141 flight school located at SFB. The first 20 or so instructors were hired and heard the promise, "Finish our program [through MEI], and we guarantee you an interview at our airline."
Thus the ComAir Aviation Academy was born.
Now let's look at the numbers:
Year # of Instructors # of Students required @ 5 per Instructor
1990 20 100
1991 100 500
1992 500 2500
...
2014 1,200,000,000,000,000,000 Instructors
Obviously, there were never that many active instructors. There were drop outs and people that bailed for other jobs along the way. But you see the point. And after ComAir had more new hires than they could handle, all the other regionals started scooping them up until they were full. But the Academy kept churning out pilots.
Too many pilots, too few jobs, what happens? The race to the bottom begins.
CFIing at large flight schools that cater only to students seeking professional* ratings has ALWAYS been a pyramid scheme. With the exception of roughly 2006-2008, 1200-2000 hours were required to be competitive at the regional level. Now, the law mandates what was the natural order.
To get a CFI typically takes about 300 hours of which roughly 200 was dual received (assuming he got IFR and Comm AMEL along the way). Back then, at 300 hours our newly minted CFI needed another 1000 hours to begin to be competitive. That meant he needed to instruct 5 zero to heroes. When those 5 got their CFIs, they each needed 5 students or 25 total.
Soooo.... Let's take a trip in the Wayback Machine..... (cue wavy line screen affect)
The year is 1989. A 22 year old and growing regional airline that has high standards is having some trouble finding qualified pilots. The solution? Train the pilots ourselves. So the owners of said regional buys a little 141 flight school located at SFB. The first 20 or so instructors were hired and heard the promise, "Finish our program [through MEI], and we guarantee you an interview at our airline."
Thus the ComAir Aviation Academy was born.
Now let's look at the numbers:
Year # of Instructors # of Students required @ 5 per Instructor
1990 20 100
1991 100 500
1992 500 2500
...
2014 1,200,000,000,000,000,000 Instructors
Obviously, there were never that many active instructors. There were drop outs and people that bailed for other jobs along the way. But you see the point. And after ComAir had more new hires than they could handle, all the other regionals started scooping them up until they were full. But the Academy kept churning out pilots.
Too many pilots, too few jobs, what happens? The race to the bottom begins.
03-20-2015, 06:04 PM
#35
Team Chemtrail
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: CRJ
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by bigboeings
Ive never understood why people say it takes so much $$$ to become a pilot. I started to fly in 1990 at a 141 school. It took me 6 months and $13000, which included housing. Adjusted for inflation thats around 23K today. That's not too bad.
03-20-2015, 06:16 PM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Who cares? Where is it chiseled in stone that you or I or anyone else is owed any part of a career? There is no "scheme" to instructing. It's a job. Take it, or leave it. It doesn't exist for you or anyone else to "build" hours.
You may actually need to go get a job. Something other than instructing. You may need to slog it out towing banners, or gliders, or flying jumpers, or doing pipeline patrol, or flying folks at the Grand Canyon. You may need to do any number of things to get your "hours." That's the way it is.
The notion that one instructs for a little while and then climbs into the nearest passing airline for the ride is a myth perpetuated by the curtain climbers who managed to do so for a few years...the rest of us built our careers on hard work and it didn't come to us.
You may have to go get it, too. It's great that you've been a teacher; good stuff for flight students who can benefit from your teaching experience. It doesn't mean much for your aviation career outside of teaching, but it probably makes you a better you. If you're moving into an aviation career after already having established an adult life, be prepared to start over.
There are no guaranteed paths or careers in aviation. Flight instructing is one path, one job, but that's all it is; a job. No guarantees that anyone will hire you, no guarantees about the number of students you may get. It's a job.
Regarding "hours;" build experience, not hours. Two people fly the same airplane, do the same thing; one comes away with an hour of time, the other with an hour of experience. Build experience. If you want hours, falsify them, and write them into your logbook. That's what hours are worth. They're meaningless.
Experience cannot be bought. It is earned, one hour at a time, one landing at a time. You can fly the next hour of your career and land with an hour for your logbook, or one hour of experience richer. Your choice. If it's about building hours, save yourself the stress and fake it all. Otherwise, go get the experience, don't worry about the number of students (as it's irrelevant), and fly. If you don't have enough flying with students in your area, do what many of us did and go drum them up. If there isnt' enough work, then go tow banners this summer and come home with eight hundred hours of time, a lot more experience, and a lifetime of stories, and maybe even a few friends.
You may starve in the process, but you'll be a lot richer for the experience.
When I didn't have students, I taught ground schools to bring them in. I visited high schools and colleges. I towed banners advertising the flight instructing. I put together mall displays, and took apart and put together an airplane in a mall for a display. I got busy with Civil Air Patrol, and worked at several places with students. I towed an airpane through one of the longest parades in the country as a float, to advertise. Point is, the work doesn't necessarily come to you. You go to it. I worked at several locations to pick up adequate student loads, and did aircraft maintenance as well, on top of washing and waxing, and fueling. I worked a second and third job off-site, too. I did whatever I needed to do to make it work, as you may need to do.
There is no pyramid scheme. The only "scheme" is the plan you formulate for yourself. It's called a career.
Most of us when I moved up through the ranks, incidentally, couldn't get on with a commuter or regional without at least 2,500 hours or more, which meant a number of years of slogging it out in the trenches, earning our way. Many of us did night freight, as well as almost any other job you can imagine to get there. You might just need to do it, too.
You may actually need to go get a job. Something other than instructing. You may need to slog it out towing banners, or gliders, or flying jumpers, or doing pipeline patrol, or flying folks at the Grand Canyon. You may need to do any number of things to get your "hours." That's the way it is.
The notion that one instructs for a little while and then climbs into the nearest passing airline for the ride is a myth perpetuated by the curtain climbers who managed to do so for a few years...the rest of us built our careers on hard work and it didn't come to us.
You may have to go get it, too. It's great that you've been a teacher; good stuff for flight students who can benefit from your teaching experience. It doesn't mean much for your aviation career outside of teaching, but it probably makes you a better you. If you're moving into an aviation career after already having established an adult life, be prepared to start over.
There are no guaranteed paths or careers in aviation. Flight instructing is one path, one job, but that's all it is; a job. No guarantees that anyone will hire you, no guarantees about the number of students you may get. It's a job.
Regarding "hours;" build experience, not hours. Two people fly the same airplane, do the same thing; one comes away with an hour of time, the other with an hour of experience. Build experience. If you want hours, falsify them, and write them into your logbook. That's what hours are worth. They're meaningless.
Experience cannot be bought. It is earned, one hour at a time, one landing at a time. You can fly the next hour of your career and land with an hour for your logbook, or one hour of experience richer. Your choice. If it's about building hours, save yourself the stress and fake it all. Otherwise, go get the experience, don't worry about the number of students (as it's irrelevant), and fly. If you don't have enough flying with students in your area, do what many of us did and go drum them up. If there isnt' enough work, then go tow banners this summer and come home with eight hundred hours of time, a lot more experience, and a lifetime of stories, and maybe even a few friends.
You may starve in the process, but you'll be a lot richer for the experience.
When I didn't have students, I taught ground schools to bring them in. I visited high schools and colleges. I towed banners advertising the flight instructing. I put together mall displays, and took apart and put together an airplane in a mall for a display. I got busy with Civil Air Patrol, and worked at several places with students. I towed an airpane through one of the longest parades in the country as a float, to advertise. Point is, the work doesn't necessarily come to you. You go to it. I worked at several locations to pick up adequate student loads, and did aircraft maintenance as well, on top of washing and waxing, and fueling. I worked a second and third job off-site, too. I did whatever I needed to do to make it work, as you may need to do.
There is no pyramid scheme. The only "scheme" is the plan you formulate for yourself. It's called a career.
Most of us when I moved up through the ranks, incidentally, couldn't get on with a commuter or regional without at least 2,500 hours or more, which meant a number of years of slogging it out in the trenches, earning our way. Many of us did night freight, as well as almost any other job you can imagine to get there. You might just need to do it, too.
I dragged rags in Panama City Beach Florida one summer and picked up 800 hrs and drank tons of booze. Well worth it!
03-20-2015, 08:49 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by bigboeings
Ive never understood why people say it takes so much $$$ to become a pilot. I started to fly in 1990 at a 141 school. It took me 6 months and $13000, which included housing. Adjusted for inflation thats around 23K today. That's not too bad.
I started in 1993 in California. My instructors were career CFI's, and guys who had been instructing for 3 or 4 years because it was hard to move out of instructing. AmeriFlight was an option. I think Skywest wanted 3000 hours minimum. I remember Eagle coming to give a presentation and took no resumes at our school because they demanded 500 hrs. instrument time. Kind of hard to log that honestly on the west coast descending through the marine layer for 45 seconds. Then RJs started coming online (and PFT), and the "commuters" started growing like crazy. By 2000 my carrier was hiring guys with commercial certificates and 50-100 hours multi directly into RJ's.
Last edited by Cruz Clearance; 03-20-2015 at 09:01 PM.
03-21-2015, 07:23 AM
#38
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
...CFIing at large flight schools that cater only to students seeking professional ratings has ALWAYS been a pyramid scheme. ...Too many pilots, too few jobs, what happens? The race to the bottom begins.
03-21-2015, 08:40 AM
#39
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
How does a flight school represent a means of ejecting those who climb too high in pay? How does it represent lowering the bar? How does it represent anything other than a business that offers a path to pilot certification.
Let's not read too much into reality, folks. There's no conspiracy. there's no scheme. The FAA, long charged with safety and certification, has set the minimum standards and requirements for levels of pilot certification. Those are the basic points of entry into working as a paid pilot or instructor. If one wishes to become a working pilot or instructor, one first needs to obtain certification. Flight schools offer the aircraft and instructors, and the means to do that.
As long as I can remember, colleges and flight schools have been serving their best interests by promoting the mythical pilot shortage, which has never existed. Every young troop of new aviators thinks that they're seeing a world that nobody else has seen, and crows about shortages, high prices, the difficulty of the industry, yada, yada. Nothing new here.
The prices are what they are. Nobody is raping anybody. It's the nature of the cost of doing business. There are ways to lower the costs, just have there have always been, from buddying up to split aircraft costs to buying your own (and yes, it can be done; go buy an experimental, fly it, then sell it, and you'll be amazed how little you ended up paying for your initial flying v. renting).
Schools are what they are. Rent from them. Rent somewhere else. Buy. Instructor rates have become ridiculous. Not that a good instructor isn't worth the investment, but instructing is an entry level position, and it's seldom I find a good instructor or one with any real experience. Fifty or seventy five bucks an hour for someone who's been there and done that and can offer you the world? Sure. For some wet behind the ears kid who could still stand to receive a lot of instruction. No way. But such is the reality of things.
Nobody owes the instructor a living. He chose his path. Nobody owes him students, or a means to build hours. The industry didn't choose him. He chose the industry. What makes him any more special than the tens of thousands of us who managed to get where we are.
The industry conspires to hold a man back, and limit his pay? How? Have you seen what can be made in this industry? I've been in some very hard working jobs. Real back breakers. Flying ain't. It's a very lazy white collar profession compared to many. I know a lot of pilots that fit the description, too.
Most primary instruction isn't the passing on of a wealth of knowledge and understanding. It's the administration of a basic syllabus, such that the student receives a minimum of training and moves on. It's often given by CFI's who know little, often some of it mythology that's been passed on from one wet behind the ears instructor to another; a heritage of inexperience, each administering the bare minimum to the next. The qualifications are more like a telemarketer, reading a script, with minimal understanding of the product; just enough to get in trouble, or to barely keep out of it. The moment that instructor has enough "hours" to escape the rat pack, he or she bails, leaving behind a pool of inexperience which seldom changes or grows.
More's the pity, most who crawl out of that pool feel like they know the world, have the tiger by the tail, and understand the industry. It's a reincarnation of the teenage blindness; extreme overconfidence in what each really doesn't know. In fact the same reiteration said of teens may be applied to many low-time CFI's and new regional FO's...now's the time to leave home and make your own way kids, while you still know everything. The only ones I've found who are more sure that they know all there is to know are the private pilots with a little training; surely a dangerous thing.
The FAA doesn't set maximum standards. The FAA sets minimum standards and they are minimal. We see that the average student does not complete certification within the minimum framework, but typically requires more; in the case of the private pilot, often double the minimum hours. This indicates that the minimum really is minimal; considerably less than what ought to be expected and often is. To whine about the certification requirements is, then much ado about nothing.
There is no pyramid scheme. Flight instruction is NOT a ponzi scheme. (It makes one wonder if those who might say so actually understand what a ponzi scheme is, or a pyramid plan, for that matter). Flight instruction bears no similarity to either.
When I instructed full time, I taught foreign students who came to the United States for the cost. I taught individuals seeking military flight opportunities, teens excited about the propsect of flight, doctors, veterans, retired people, aircraft owners, a few individuals who moved to the airlines, etc. Some wanted to become instructors and go no further.
When I began flying, I simply wanted to fly. The notion that I would one day wind up in the left seat of a 747 was wildly unrealistic to me, so much so that I only occasionally referred to as a joke. Yet one day, there I found myself, and the trip has been wide and varied (as it continues to be). The idea that legions of people begin flying with the intent to turn themselves into airline pilots is only a partial truth; there are far more students who undertake instruction than ever intend to fly for the airlines, or even fly for a living.
There exists neither an instructor shortage, nor a student shortage, nor is there a pilot shortage.
There is a temporary demand at the regional level for inexperienced aviators who are willing to prostitute themselves for meager wages. That's it. No other segment of the industry is hurting for pilots, nor will that happen. There are many more paths in the industry than the airlines, particularly the regionals, regardless of what one wishes to do or where one would like to end up.
What we're actually seeing right now are the voices of inexperience, dismayed that a mighty 1,500 hours is required of an airline pilot to obtain the airline transport pilot certificate. By and large, the rest of the industry doesn't care. The world hasn't slowed or changed its rotational axis by even a smidge. Most of us see it as no big deal at all, as far more hours were required of us, and we all managed just fine; to be competitive one had to have 2,500 hours or more when I moved up the ranks, so it was a given that one was going to need to go get experience beyond instructing somewhere, and we all did.
Those crying that the sky is falling, that a conspiracy exists, that the system is broke, that the industry owes them a path and a living, and that some great crooked scheme is in play preventing them from moving forward (the old "keep the man down" lament) need to wake up, dust themselves off, and work out their own path. Welcome to reality kids. Stop crying, make it work for you, and move on.
The industry has always had a way of weeding out those who weren't motivated enough. If that's you, bye bye.
If that's not you, welcome. You're in for an interesting journey.
Let's not read too much into reality, folks. There's no conspiracy. there's no scheme. The FAA, long charged with safety and certification, has set the minimum standards and requirements for levels of pilot certification. Those are the basic points of entry into working as a paid pilot or instructor. If one wishes to become a working pilot or instructor, one first needs to obtain certification. Flight schools offer the aircraft and instructors, and the means to do that.
As long as I can remember, colleges and flight schools have been serving their best interests by promoting the mythical pilot shortage, which has never existed. Every young troop of new aviators thinks that they're seeing a world that nobody else has seen, and crows about shortages, high prices, the difficulty of the industry, yada, yada. Nothing new here.
The prices are what they are. Nobody is raping anybody. It's the nature of the cost of doing business. There are ways to lower the costs, just have there have always been, from buddying up to split aircraft costs to buying your own (and yes, it can be done; go buy an experimental, fly it, then sell it, and you'll be amazed how little you ended up paying for your initial flying v. renting).
Schools are what they are. Rent from them. Rent somewhere else. Buy. Instructor rates have become ridiculous. Not that a good instructor isn't worth the investment, but instructing is an entry level position, and it's seldom I find a good instructor or one with any real experience. Fifty or seventy five bucks an hour for someone who's been there and done that and can offer you the world? Sure. For some wet behind the ears kid who could still stand to receive a lot of instruction. No way. But such is the reality of things.
Nobody owes the instructor a living. He chose his path. Nobody owes him students, or a means to build hours. The industry didn't choose him. He chose the industry. What makes him any more special than the tens of thousands of us who managed to get where we are.
The industry conspires to hold a man back, and limit his pay? How? Have you seen what can be made in this industry? I've been in some very hard working jobs. Real back breakers. Flying ain't. It's a very lazy white collar profession compared to many. I know a lot of pilots that fit the description, too.
Most primary instruction isn't the passing on of a wealth of knowledge and understanding. It's the administration of a basic syllabus, such that the student receives a minimum of training and moves on. It's often given by CFI's who know little, often some of it mythology that's been passed on from one wet behind the ears instructor to another; a heritage of inexperience, each administering the bare minimum to the next. The qualifications are more like a telemarketer, reading a script, with minimal understanding of the product; just enough to get in trouble, or to barely keep out of it. The moment that instructor has enough "hours" to escape the rat pack, he or she bails, leaving behind a pool of inexperience which seldom changes or grows.
More's the pity, most who crawl out of that pool feel like they know the world, have the tiger by the tail, and understand the industry. It's a reincarnation of the teenage blindness; extreme overconfidence in what each really doesn't know. In fact the same reiteration said of teens may be applied to many low-time CFI's and new regional FO's...now's the time to leave home and make your own way kids, while you still know everything. The only ones I've found who are more sure that they know all there is to know are the private pilots with a little training; surely a dangerous thing.
The FAA doesn't set maximum standards. The FAA sets minimum standards and they are minimal. We see that the average student does not complete certification within the minimum framework, but typically requires more; in the case of the private pilot, often double the minimum hours. This indicates that the minimum really is minimal; considerably less than what ought to be expected and often is. To whine about the certification requirements is, then much ado about nothing.
There is no pyramid scheme. Flight instruction is NOT a ponzi scheme. (It makes one wonder if those who might say so actually understand what a ponzi scheme is, or a pyramid plan, for that matter). Flight instruction bears no similarity to either.
When I instructed full time, I taught foreign students who came to the United States for the cost. I taught individuals seeking military flight opportunities, teens excited about the propsect of flight, doctors, veterans, retired people, aircraft owners, a few individuals who moved to the airlines, etc. Some wanted to become instructors and go no further.
When I began flying, I simply wanted to fly. The notion that I would one day wind up in the left seat of a 747 was wildly unrealistic to me, so much so that I only occasionally referred to as a joke. Yet one day, there I found myself, and the trip has been wide and varied (as it continues to be). The idea that legions of people begin flying with the intent to turn themselves into airline pilots is only a partial truth; there are far more students who undertake instruction than ever intend to fly for the airlines, or even fly for a living.
There exists neither an instructor shortage, nor a student shortage, nor is there a pilot shortage.
There is a temporary demand at the regional level for inexperienced aviators who are willing to prostitute themselves for meager wages. That's it. No other segment of the industry is hurting for pilots, nor will that happen. There are many more paths in the industry than the airlines, particularly the regionals, regardless of what one wishes to do or where one would like to end up.
What we're actually seeing right now are the voices of inexperience, dismayed that a mighty 1,500 hours is required of an airline pilot to obtain the airline transport pilot certificate. By and large, the rest of the industry doesn't care. The world hasn't slowed or changed its rotational axis by even a smidge. Most of us see it as no big deal at all, as far more hours were required of us, and we all managed just fine; to be competitive one had to have 2,500 hours or more when I moved up the ranks, so it was a given that one was going to need to go get experience beyond instructing somewhere, and we all did.
Those crying that the sky is falling, that a conspiracy exists, that the system is broke, that the industry owes them a path and a living, and that some great crooked scheme is in play preventing them from moving forward (the old "keep the man down" lament) need to wake up, dust themselves off, and work out their own path. Welcome to reality kids. Stop crying, make it work for you, and move on.
The industry has always had a way of weeding out those who weren't motivated enough. If that's you, bye bye.
If that's not you, welcome. You're in for an interesting journey.
03-21-2015, 09:49 AM
#40
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
How does a flight school represent a means of ejecting those who climb too high in pay?
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