Are CFI Jobs Becoming a Pyramid Scheme?
03-23-2015, 06:31 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
Wow. Do you blame people born in poor, third world countries for dying poor, without health care and failing to start Fortune 500 companies because they're too lazy to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, overthrow their corrupt governments and change the world? Good for you if your career path worked out. It's not going to be the same for everyone.
It absolutely is luck to a certain extent. Sure, you can research the industry ad nauseam, but things happen. Like 9/11. Or your airline fails. Or your parent company kills your airline like ComAir or American Eagle. These two regional were arguably some of the best available. Where are they now? These are absolutely outside your control and will set back your career. Maybe your next choice will be luckier. Not everyone gets the Legacy Carrier job, that's just life. Sometimes you're forced down or laterally and have to climb back up again. To think that this can't be hard on a marriage is insane.
I really don't know what to say about the rest of your rebuttal. It's nothing but self righteous hyperbole and black and white worldview. I merely posted two sides of a story and my view as a student at the time as a cautionary tale for those interested in the industry to think of, and prepare for, both eventualities. Your "cancers of the industry" and blaming people for unlucky choices is just arrogant and detracts from the fact that life happens, and it doesn't always happen the way we hope or work for. . I won't be rejoining this conversation.
It absolutely is luck to a certain extent. Sure, you can research the industry ad nauseam, but things happen. Like 9/11. Or your airline fails. Or your parent company kills your airline like ComAir or American Eagle. These two regional were arguably some of the best available. Where are they now? These are absolutely outside your control and will set back your career. Maybe your next choice will be luckier. Not everyone gets the Legacy Carrier job, that's just life. Sometimes you're forced down or laterally and have to climb back up again. To think that this can't be hard on a marriage is insane.
I really don't know what to say about the rest of your rebuttal. It's nothing but self righteous hyperbole and black and white worldview. I merely posted two sides of a story and my view as a student at the time as a cautionary tale for those interested in the industry to think of, and prepare for, both eventualities. Your "cancers of the industry" and blaming people for unlucky choices is just arrogant and detracts from the fact that life happens, and it doesn't always happen the way we hope or work for. . I won't be rejoining this conversation.
03-23-2015, 06:32 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: Pipers & RV-12
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Those who feel entitled to a career path should join the military where it's given them, paid courtesy of someone else, and a ladder is provided for the career. No such fantasy exists in the civil world, where one is ABSOLUTELY expected to pull one's self up by one's own bootstraps.
I don't see the military as an entitlement. Last time I checked they didn't take everyone who applied, and there were some small extended travel requirements in the contract with no guarantees about anything for the next decade owed to Uncle Sam. There was attrition, especially the week they washed one-fourth of the class out before Tweet solo. We graduated with half of the folks we started with. A few years later a classmate died in Desert Storm. A decade later I buried three friends in less than a year, all due to training mishaps. Well, at least the flight training was "paid courtesy of someone else". Some fantasy.
By the way, the civilian fantasy you talk about exists at Lufthansa, where there is training provided and a career path laid out (flight training costs are paid back over time -- at about 5,000 Euro annually -- after one starts flying the line). However, the competition for the pilot slots is easily as competitive as for military slots.
Last edited by Fluglehrer; 03-23-2015 at 06:50 PM. Reason: spelling
03-23-2015, 07:52 PM
#53
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox
Wow. Do you blame people born in poor, third world countries for dying poor, without health care and failing to start Fortune 500 companies because they're too lazy to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, overthrow their corrupt governments and change the world? Good for you if your career path worked out. It's not going to be the same for everyone.
No. Hell no.
It's about flight instructors who seem to think that they're owed hours, students, and a path to the airlines.
Bottom line is that as an instructor, nobody is going to beat a path to your door. Wait, and die waiting.
Get up, make your own path, make your own career. That's not hyperbole. That's reality. Get over it.
Originally Posted by Fluglehrer
I don't see the military as an entitlement.
I said that it represents a career path. It happens to be one that everyone else pays for, one in which the applicant doesn't need to go through what the civil pilot does, and one in which the applicant will be making considerably more than the civil pilot. It happens to be one in which the applicant begins ab initio, and ends up flying advanced, sophisticated equipment, and has extended career prospects upon completion of service.
Originally Posted by Fluglehrer
By the way, the civilian fantasy you talk about exists at Lufthansa, where there is training provided and a career path laid out (flight training costs are paid back over time -- at about 5,000 Euro annually -- after one starts flying the line). However, the competition for the pilot slots is easily as competitive as for military slots.
03-23-2015, 09:36 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
You talk as though I'm speaking to the wrong crowd, and that's not the case. I'm talking about flight instructing. Others have elected to diverge on tangents about the career and decry aviation as a whole, but the fact is when one undertakes flight training there are NO guarantees. One is expected to make one's way.
Those who feel entitled to a career path should join the military where it's given them, paid courtesy of someone else, and a ladder is provided for the career. No such fantasy exists in the civil world, where one is ABSOLUTELY expected to pull one's self up by one's own bootstraps.
I made my way the same as everyone else. The current crop of instructors or instructor-wannabe's always seems to think that they're special. They've got it hard. Nobody has seen it this tough. It's not like in your day, they say, when you had it easy. Today it's expensive. Today there are no students. Today this, today that, bull****.
It's aviation. There's no pipeline. There's no entitlement. Everyone who enters had better be prepared to work out their own path, and that includes very much at the entry level. Want someone to provide you with students? That's a sense of entitlement. Go get them. Bring them in. Make your own "luck."
There is no scheme. There is no pyramid scheme. There is no ponzi scheme. The statistics tossed around were false, imagined numbers, and they were wrong. If you happen to be training at a place where the competition is fierce and you don't feel there are enough students or enough work, then go somewhere else. Move. Find work elsewhere. Do something other than instruct, but make your way and don't whine about how entitled you think you are to a path and a career courtesy of someone else. The airlines don't owe you. The students don't owe you. The schools don't owe you. The taxpayer doesn't owe you. The FAA doesn't owe you.
Your career, your problem. No scheme. The schools provide the instructors and the airplanes or helicopters. You provide the cash. What do you get for your money? If you study and do your part, you get certification. After that, it's up to you. That's not a scheme. It's a school providing a service. If the school hires you, then great, you're someone they consider worth their money and time. If you get some students that walk in the door, great. If not, then it's up to you.
One can sit around and whine about fairness all day. Fairness is a myth. Life isn't fair. There's no such thing as "luck." When someone says "I wish," what they're really saying is "I'm too lazy to make it happen." Everything else is smoke and mirrors, usually inside one's own eyes; the mists of perception. For those who feel entitled, WAKE UP! This is aviation. The world isn't coming to you. Students aren't coming to you. Employers aren't coming to you.
You go to them. Make our way. If you want a conspiracy, if you want a scheme, that's it. That's the dirty secret, the meaning of life. If you want it done, right or wrong, do it yourself. When you undertake flight instructing or receiving instruction, that's what you can expect. If you're able to handle that, you'll do well. If you can't handle that, then the business may not be for you.
The industry has a way of weeding out those who aren't able to make it on their own. It's not about paying dues. It's about recognizing that one is responsible for one's own welfare, for making one's way and about not sitting back and waiting for someone else to do it all for you.
Nobody is "suckered" into this world of aviation. Even skyhigh with his tales of woe and misdirection wasn't mislead. He willingly walked into a career he knew nothing about, blind as a bat.
If I'm going to invest a few thousand in a car, I'll do a lot of research. If I'm going to invest in a tool, I don't buy the first one I see. I know what I'm buying. Same for a firearm, a vacation get away, or a coat. If I'm going to find a wife, I'm going to work very hard to get to know her, know what I'm getting into, and if I'm interested in a church, I'm going to check it out. Why in the hell would I consider a career without fully investigating it, prior to spending a dime? Suckered? No; those who claim such are simply lazy, and deserve no compassion.
Before one jumps off the high dive, check first to see if there's any water below.
It's only common sense.
Those who feel entitled to a career path should join the military where it's given them, paid courtesy of someone else, and a ladder is provided for the career. No such fantasy exists in the civil world, where one is ABSOLUTELY expected to pull one's self up by one's own bootstraps.
I made my way the same as everyone else. The current crop of instructors or instructor-wannabe's always seems to think that they're special. They've got it hard. Nobody has seen it this tough. It's not like in your day, they say, when you had it easy. Today it's expensive. Today there are no students. Today this, today that, bull****.
It's aviation. There's no pipeline. There's no entitlement. Everyone who enters had better be prepared to work out their own path, and that includes very much at the entry level. Want someone to provide you with students? That's a sense of entitlement. Go get them. Bring them in. Make your own "luck."
There is no scheme. There is no pyramid scheme. There is no ponzi scheme. The statistics tossed around were false, imagined numbers, and they were wrong. If you happen to be training at a place where the competition is fierce and you don't feel there are enough students or enough work, then go somewhere else. Move. Find work elsewhere. Do something other than instruct, but make your way and don't whine about how entitled you think you are to a path and a career courtesy of someone else. The airlines don't owe you. The students don't owe you. The schools don't owe you. The taxpayer doesn't owe you. The FAA doesn't owe you.
Your career, your problem. No scheme. The schools provide the instructors and the airplanes or helicopters. You provide the cash. What do you get for your money? If you study and do your part, you get certification. After that, it's up to you. That's not a scheme. It's a school providing a service. If the school hires you, then great, you're someone they consider worth their money and time. If you get some students that walk in the door, great. If not, then it's up to you.
One can sit around and whine about fairness all day. Fairness is a myth. Life isn't fair. There's no such thing as "luck." When someone says "I wish," what they're really saying is "I'm too lazy to make it happen." Everything else is smoke and mirrors, usually inside one's own eyes; the mists of perception. For those who feel entitled, WAKE UP! This is aviation. The world isn't coming to you. Students aren't coming to you. Employers aren't coming to you.
You go to them. Make our way. If you want a conspiracy, if you want a scheme, that's it. That's the dirty secret, the meaning of life. If you want it done, right or wrong, do it yourself. When you undertake flight instructing or receiving instruction, that's what you can expect. If you're able to handle that, you'll do well. If you can't handle that, then the business may not be for you.
The industry has a way of weeding out those who aren't able to make it on their own. It's not about paying dues. It's about recognizing that one is responsible for one's own welfare, for making one's way and about not sitting back and waiting for someone else to do it all for you.
Nobody is "suckered" into this world of aviation. Even skyhigh with his tales of woe and misdirection wasn't mislead. He willingly walked into a career he knew nothing about, blind as a bat.
If I'm going to invest a few thousand in a car, I'll do a lot of research. If I'm going to invest in a tool, I don't buy the first one I see. I know what I'm buying. Same for a firearm, a vacation get away, or a coat. If I'm going to find a wife, I'm going to work very hard to get to know her, know what I'm getting into, and if I'm interested in a church, I'm going to check it out. Why in the hell would I consider a career without fully investigating it, prior to spending a dime? Suckered? No; those who claim such are simply lazy, and deserve no compassion.
Before one jumps off the high dive, check first to see if there's any water below.
It's only common sense.
03-23-2015, 10:09 PM
#55
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Those who feel entitled to a career path should join the military where it's given them, paid courtesy of someone else, and a ladder is provided for the career. No such fantasy exists in the civil world, where one is ABSOLUTELY expected to pull one's self up by one's own bootstraps.
03-23-2015, 10:16 PM
#56
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
So what about cheating and illegal activities? Are those "ok" as long as you were "doing what it takes to make it"?
Do you feel that to be the case?
03-25-2015, 05:52 AM
#60
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
JB, since you are so enlightened, why not tell us all about your experience in the aviation industry?
Otherwise, hush up.
Otherwise, hush up.
Hush up unless I provide you with my personal details? You've demanded this of everyone else in the thread, too? How is it relevant to the thread topic? It's not.
What you're doing is something we often see when someone begins to lose ground or is defending a losing point; if you can't make your point, attack the other poster. Classy.
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