WhiteMorpheus

Para 1: It's the difference between letting scheduling do something and forcing them to do something. We should have been forcing them to build all flying into hybrid/BU lines all along.

Para 2: SAP as we know it is inconsistent with PBS. If you have evidence that proves otherwise please PM me. We need to "get the world" if they do anything to modify it, but it does us no good to preserve the name "SAP" if it is no different than FCFS.

Para 3: We must get the chance to poke holes in any system or language that is negotiated before it goes to vote, especially on PBS. If we had been offered a chance to tell the union how stupid the "reserve improvements" and bucket system (which is apparently being used as intended) were we might have been able to get some actual improvements. The same is true of the convoluted holiday pay rules, though it sounds like the union wanted something simpler/better for everybody.

Further PBS talk: The most junior person that gets a full flying line in a 2-round PBS bid given a 10% reservation for SAP (that is, the last 10% of flying is unassigned) would have had access to every available OT trip. The most senior person would have had access to every available trip. Aside from a really poor bid or a newly developed family situation why would the senior person want any of the worst 10% of our flying? They wouldn't. If they bid right, they should want for nothing.

As you work down seniority you're faced with trade-offs, do you want weekends off or 90 hours credit? Do you want to have your kid's birthday off or to not fly a 200 at all in the month? Are you willing to bid a reserve/hybrid line that accommodates your desired days off or do you want to tell your SO that you're missing their holiday party again? Do you want to bid min credit in your vacation month to have 22 days off or make money by bookending your vacation with trips?

Moral of the story: under PBS you will have to make rules that give you what is most important to you. If you don't provide adequate rules to get the ONE thing you most desire, it's on you (or you're just too junior to get what you want and probably would have been R2/BU/RES and working the leftovers anyway).

272922

You sure you want scheduling to build out all the open time in Round 2? The union was apparently pushing hard for that and what we got were a bunch of hybrid lines with locked reserve days that no one can trade. And you know what the reserve grids usually look like.

The irony of the company / union relationship is everything the union gives the company makes the pilot group less likely to vote for PBS. Every senior manned captain, or every person who bids for upgrade to avoid getting senior manned, gets to experience the wonderful competence of scheduling as they use the reserve "improvements" as toilet paper in the bathroom. Yeah, that's a crowd that'll vote for PBS for sure...…

But it's not like this outcome was hard to foresee. Steve said on the last conference call he was on the only people in the room when the language was negotiated was two management guys and TR. You know, the same people that brought you senior manning. Great job guys. We're all waiting to see your management written PBS language with baited breath.

Slow2Final

I'm still confused on that. I thought I remember the union sending an email that amounted to "we're confused why they're doing that, we never came to an actual agreement on it". Yet it continues to happen, and seems like a direct violation of the contract as it stands. Shouldn't this be grieved (for whatever that's worth nowadays) every time it happens? What am I missing?

I say this as someone who doesn't have to deal with it.

Duck Sausage

I would rather have the control of my own schedule through sap. You’re asking me to trade off a certain event or days off I need and give up working weekends or fly the 200. Having no commutable trips because I had my priorities set for needing that special time off? How about I get that “event” off, get the weekends off, have the possibility of flying the equipment I want, and fly as much or as little as I want? I can do that with the greatest tool gifted to pilots ever with the SAP. If the ball is in our court why is everyone so bent on getting rid of it. I like having my fate in my own hands.

Urban achiever

Because people hate inconvenience. Sap is the best thing to ever happen to us, but it is a pain in the behind waiting 30-45 mins... maybe as much as 4-6 hours for a trade to go through and be denied.

If anything we should be negotiating sap improvements in “real time” and min day / duty / trip rigs so they can build more lines for all if it means getting people off reserve.

chrisreedrules

I don’t think SAP is going anywhere. And I don’t think we’re as near to PBS as many seem to think. I think what we have will remain status quo for quite a while.

Slow2Final

I'm definitely inclined to agree that PBS is a ways out, but it will absolutely affect the SAP process, by the simple nature of the senior pilots getting what they want beforehand (and less open time pot movement because of it).

mike sierra

With SAP we can have all we want:
Weekends off
High credit
Commutable trips
Special days off

Why would the pilot group vote on something that I need to compromise between that?

For PBS we need a PILOT vote with this in the contract:

Straight drop (not grid related, no company restrictions)
Reserve aggressive bid
No displacement (can’t avoid LCA trips anymore)
Better rules for senior manning
More people out of reserve (for example everyone that hold a blue line becomes a full line holder with trade and drop)
Trip duty rigs


Than people might consider...because since the senior manning and reserve fiasco trust levels are low

WhiteMorpheus

So, you are a hard "No" on PBS...


I 100% agree that SAP is an amazing game-changer. I also agree that we should get the opportunity to vote down PBS and keep line bidding. Will that actually get us what we want?

If we vote PBS down twice it will probably go to mediation. When that happens we are going to lose because the NMB will side with the company that PBS is a contractually suitable equivalent to line bidding. We will be forced to negotiate quickly (if we get the chance at all) or get stuck with a PBS fully defined by the company. The company will have to meet the contractual obligation to have SAP, but it will be nothing like what we have and a waste of negotiating capital.

I suspect this whole process will play out within 3 years from today. Best of luck to everyone that is still here then, hopefully you'll all be senior enough to bid exactly what you want and you can be happy knowing you ******* on all the new guys instead of voting for real improvements when you had the chance.

irrelevant

Good to hear. One thing is certain with PSA. No matter what "improvement" is sold to us, it never works out as advertised.