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Originally Posted by TalkTurkey
(Post 1930983)
This is a chronic fact and those who commit to lateral moves should be held accountable for this aviation sin in a form similar to the black book. I've often iterated that if everyone would just stay put, the majors would have to allow MEC's to bargain for better working conditions. But on the flip side of that coin, persons will generally dance to the beat of their own drum. Who can really issue blame? Pass judgment? Create a black book? No one is who.
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Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1931028)
Those who don't do lateral moves needs their head examined. I mean who stays on FO reserve for four years in the beginning /middle of the biggest hiring spree we will ever see in our lifetimes.
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PSA Direct Entry!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by TalkTurkey
(Post 1931040)
But who the heck wants to endure any sacrifice? No one, that's who.
Don't you work for a regional? AKA a major airline D scale... If you are just stating the problem and acknowledging that you and I and everybody else are a part of it, then I am with you. But if not, it would be pretty hypocritical for you to advocate sacrifice while accepting a job in the slums with the rest of us. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1929892)
Here we go again. Why exactly was the "regional industry on the brink of a turn around?" Where exactly did this leverage(power) come from? Please tailor your answer(even though I know you will not answer) towards wholly owned carriers, and give specific examples of leverage pieces that we had.
The regional industry was on the brink of a turn around because of a combination of the effects of the 1500 hr rule limiting supply and RAH,Eagle, and XJT pilots all standing together and refusing to take concessions. I don't care if you're wholly owned or not, standing up for the profession and telling management what we're worth is the most important thing. accepting the pay cuts for airplanes is telling management "we don't think we're worth more than you tell us we are worth." The only leverage piece we needed was the fact that the majors still need regional feed and no other companies could find enough pilots to replace any other company. Now, if a new hire goes to Eagle instead of PSA or Pinnacle is that also "supporting what they did?" If no, please explain why it is different. yes it is supporting what they did, although eagle's situation was different than PSA's when they took concessions. PSA took concessions for no other reason than benefiting themselves, to my knowledge they were not in financial trouble...etc. However, still no excuse for taking concessions at eagle. Next, since we "walked over your backs" please tell me how many times PSA voted against taking concessions for acft prior to voting yes in 2013? It doesn't matter how many times you vote no to concessions, it only matters how many times you vote yes to concessions and the circumstances that you vote for concessions. Voting yes for concessions after something like 9/11 is totally different than voting yes for concessions so that you can get more airplanes and get a quick upgrade Lastly, If Pinnacle was first and PSA was second, everyone after them is free to vote in 12/4 without ridicule? Why is the 3rd carrier ok but the 2nd is not?
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 1929900)
You talk about a regional industry like it should somehow even exist. It shouldn't. You are the cause of the problem no different than anyone else. You're responsible.
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
(Post 1929949)
Dude come on, the reason regionals had a small advantage in the late 90's i'm not talking about the late 90's, i'm talking about since the pinnacle 25% pay cut votewas because of the major scope sales. Giving regionals what they want was cheaper than leaving the flying at mainline. That savings is now the status quo. What happened was there weren't enough different company's to spread the flying out in the late 90's so their wasn't effective competition, now there are so many different company's it's to much pressure to make real gains.
You do realize Pinnacle, Mesaba and Colgan went BANKRUPT because there are to many players in the field. The fix is to consolidate the seniority list. Go-jets, TSA, Compass= 1 list SKW, XJT, ASA= 1 list PSA, Piedmont, Eagle = 1 list Republic has 1 list. Until you get the bulk of the industry on a just a few list nothing will change.agree 100% with this "fix" part |
1: So you're still holding on to the "they can't staff it" mantra that your own union has admitted they were wrong about? Come on. The fact that you can't see that a wholly owned is in a different situation than a non should probably tell me to stop typing this response because it will fall on deaf ears anyway. On a secondary note.....If airlines cannot staff why was Eagle finally forced to vote in concessions like PSA? If no one cans staff how could AAG possibly shut down Eagle?
2: LOL. Eagle's situation was different from PSA's? How? We were told "yes or shutdown" Eagle was told the same exact thing, how in the world is the situation different? 3: Well, someone has been pasting a previous post that, while not perfect, shows a general timeline of the voting at each airline over the past few years. Maybe they'll show up and throw it out there for me. Just so I'm sure about that last sentence or so.....You are saying that certain circumstances make it ok to vote in concessions? Kinda like your parent company telling you they will shut you down if you vote no? Does that sound familiar? 4: So Eagle is the same as PSA because they voted in concessions as well, right? PSA did not vote in concessions for airplanes just the same way Eagle didn't vote in concessions just to get E170s. MENTIONING A NON WHOLLY OWNED AIRLINE WHILE TALKING ABOUT THE NEGOTIATING ENVIRONMENT AT A WHOLLY OWNED MAKES YOU LOOK UNEDUCATED ON THE PROCESS. |
Here ya go!
Let's review some history and compare and contrast PSA and Envoy,....... one more time.
1(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new CRJ 900 jets in exchange for concessions. PSA Pilots say no, and those jets went to Mesa. 1(b) Parker offers Envoy pilots new E-170 jets in exchange for concessions. Envoy pilots say no, and those jets went to Compass. 2(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new jets in exchange for concessions. PSA pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. 2(b) Parker offers Envoy pilots new E-170's in exchange for concessions. Envoy pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. 3(a) Parker again offers new CRJ 900's to PSA pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. PSA pilots took the deal. 3(b) Parker again offers new E-170's to Envoy pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. Envoy pilots took the deal. So as we can clearly see, it's ok for Envoy pilots to take a deal in order to save their jobs,....... but it's not ok for PSA pilots to take that same deal in order to save THEIR jobs. |
Spaaks,
Pinnacle voted concessions in BK to "presumably" keep their jobs. AAG realized they didn't take enough from Eagle in their BK, so they were relentless in getting Eagle take a deal similar to Pinnacles. If Eagle was so convinced they weren't enough pilots and they could use that, how come RA claimed he was parking Pinnacle's 50 seat jets. Why has United decide to not pay SKW enough to operate the Embraers and XJT is losing 100 airplanes. The fix for the drop in new hire applications was, reduce the total airframes and increase their size. Delta 2012 allowed this, United followed suit. I talked to a former Pinniacle pilot in his early 30's. He has the BK card, the SLI card, and the reluctant concessions card. Poor fella, you know where he works, Delta. Seems like BK was the best thing hat happened in his career. Meanwhile PSA gets a take it or leave it deal, with a Deta style SSP, when 50 seaters are fading fast and everyone wants to take a dump on them. Two things for the Eagle negotiations, 1) They had already bought their flow, so the company couldn't resell it to them. 2) A judge ruled only they could operate their aircraft since they co-signed the original loans, how did that un-do itself? |
Originally Posted by Slick111
(Post 1931143)
Let's review some history and compare and contrast PSA and Envoy,....... one more time.
1(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new CRJ 900 jets in exchange for concessions. PSA Pilots say no, and those jets went to Mesa. 1(b) Parker offers Envoy pilots new E-170 jets in exchange for concessions. Envoy pilots say no, and those jets went to Compass. 2(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new jets in exchange for concessions. PSA pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. 2(b) Parker offers Envoy pilots new E-170's in exchange for concessions. Envoy pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. 3(a) Parker again offers new CRJ 900's to PSA pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. PSA pilots took the deal. 3(b) Parker again offers new E-170's to Envoy pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. Envoy pilots took the deal. So as we can clearly see, it's ok for Envoy pilots to take a deal in order to save their jobs,....... but it's not ok for PSA pilots to take that same deal in order to save THEIR jobs. You're "history" is inaccurate. 1(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new CRJ 900 jets in exchange for concessions. PSA Pilots say no, and those jets went to Mesa. 2(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new jets in exchange for concessions. PSA pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. HORTON of AMR, during bankruptcy and to create leverage for his $20M buyout demand, sent an ASA for 47 E175, and up to 50 more to RAH; harming AMR stock value and sending a shot across the bow that he'd do more unless he got his way. Parker had nothing to do with it; and those planes were never offered to Eagle. Eagle/ENY MEC votes no 07-2013 XJT Pilots vote no Eagle/ENY pilots vote no 03-2014 RAH Pilots vote no 04-2013 SKW gets raises Commutair gets Raises Silver gets Raises ALPA National tells Eagle/ENY we got your back with their letter that they would not allow a whipsaw or a B-scale in August 2013.... Shortly therafter, 3(a) Parker again offers new CRJ 900's to PSA pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. PSA pilots took the deal. 1(b) Parker continues to offer Envoy pilots new E-175 jets repeatedly in exchange for concessions. 20 of those jets finally went to Compass on a 6 year ASA when Eagle pilots wouldn't budge on concessions. 3(b) Parker offers ENY again, and again, and again the new E-175's to Envoy pilots. Envoy pilots refused the deal and Parker began to part us out to the lowest bidder (PSA & PDT). In December it came down to being parted out down to 68 E145's flown by the most expensive and senior pilots in the industry, or take the deal and stop the bleeding. All of the contracts/plans for our CRJ's and the PDT/XJT/TSA E145 contracts were all done prior to our TA in December. There have been no additional aircraft outsourced since then. In fact, we are pulling them out of storage to add flying that the outsourced companies can't cover. |
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 1931165)
You're "history" is inaccurate.
1(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new CRJ 900 jets in exchange for concessions. PSA Pilots say no, and those jets went to Mesa. 2(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new jets in exchange for concessions. PSA pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. HORTON of AMR, during bankruptcy and to create leverage for his $20M buyout demand, sent an ASA for 47 E175, and up to 50 more to RAH; harming AMR stock value and sending a shot across the bow that he'd do more unless he got his way. Parker had nothing to do with it; and those planes were never offered to Eagle. Eagle/ENY MEC votes no 07-2013 XJT Pilots vote no Eagle/ENY pilots vote no 03-2014 RAH Pilots vote no 04-2013 SKW gets raises Commutair gets Raises Silver gets Raises ALPA National tells Eagle/ENY we got your back with their letter that they would not allow a whipsaw or a B-scale in August 2013.... Shortly therafter, 3(a) Parker again offers new CRJ 900's to PSA pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. PSA pilots took the deal. 1(b) Parker continues to offer Envoy pilots new E-175 jets repeatedly in exchange for concessions. 20 of those jets finally went to Compass on a 6 year ASA when Eagle pilots wouldn't budge. 3(b) Parker offers ENY again, and again, and again the new E-175's to Envoy pilots. Envoy pilots took the deal since nobody had our back, and we were being parted out to the lowest bidder (PSA & PDT). All of the contracts/plans for our CRJ's and the PDT/XJT/TSA E145 contracts were all done prior to our TA in December. There have been no additional aircraft outsourced since then. In fact, we are pulling them out of storage to add flying that the outsourced companies can't cover. |
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 1931165)
You're "history" is inaccurate.
1(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new CRJ 900 jets in exchange for concessions. PSA Pilots say no, and those jets went to Mesa. 2(a) Parker offers PSA pilots new jets in exchange for concessions. PSA pilots say no and Parker sent those jets to Republic. HORTON of AMR, during bankruptcy and to create leverage for his $20M buyout demand, sent an ASA for 47 E175, and up to 50 more to RAH; harming AMR stock value and sending a shot across the bow that he'd do more unless he got his way. Parker had nothing to do with it; and those planes were never offered to Eagle. Eagle/ENY MEC votes no 07-2013 XJT Pilots vote no Eagle/ENY pilots vote no 03-2014 RAH Pilots vote no 04-2013 SKW gets raises Commutair gets Raises Silver gets Raises ALPA National tells Eagle/ENY we got your back with their letter that they would not allow a whipsaw or a B-scale in August 2013.... Shortly therafter, 3(a) Parker again offers new CRJ 900's to PSA pilots in exchange for concessions, with the caveat that the airline would be shut down if they said no again. PSA pilots took the deal. 1(b) Parker continues to offer Envoy pilots new E-175 jets repeatedly in exchange for concessions. 20 of those jets finally went to Compass on a 6 year ASA when Eagle pilots wouldn't budge on concessions. 3(b) Parker offers ENY again, and again, and again the new E-175's to Envoy pilots. Envoy pilots refused the deal and Parker began to part us out to the lowest bidder (PSA & PDT). In December it came down to being parted out down to 68 E145's flown by the most expensive and senior pilots in the industry, or take the deal and stop the bleeding. All of the contracts/plans for our CRJ's and the PDT/XJT/TSA E145 contracts were all done prior to our TA in December. There have been no additional aircraft outsourced since then. In fact, we are pulling them out of storage to add flying that the outsourced companies can't cover. In a nutshell: PSA voted no twice. Eagle voted no twice. |
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