Airline Pilot Central Forums - USA Today Reveals Regional Airline's Low Pay Secret

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Quote:

Originally Posted by T-1A (Post 134280)

All right guys lets put this all into perspective. I've got my four year college degree and will have a masters in a couple of months. By the time I can leave my current employer (2 years) I will have over 2000 hours with over 9 years of flying experience. If some great company like UPS FEDEX etc were to hire me I would be happy. That being said, I do believe that pilots are under paid for the amount of experince and education required for the job. Take a look at a doctor, what knowledge and experience is required to be responsible for one life at a time? How does this compare to 200? Anyway, it is supply and demand ....and our demand. This industry has been managed improperly and the pilots helped to pay for it by accepting lower pay. Why?..they had to feed their kids. The bad times are probably over and demand should increase...as ours should as well. Let us not beat each other up here and work together against the "man". We need unions stronger than ALPA to help us as a collective whole. Bottom line, when the demand for pilots goes up our demands should as well. Just my two cents ...but what do I know.

Ok, name one.............

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilotrod (Post 130825)

I am amused at the "old schoolers" who still remember when the only well trained pilots came from the military. Only supermen types where allowed to fly, they had to have perfect uncorrected vision, as well as a huge ego. They were trained by uncle sam, and then went on to make $350,000 a year, with million dollar retirements. The flight attendants, (stewardesses) as they where known then, where all potential miss America candidates, who hoped to marry one of these "supermen" rich pilots. Flying on a commercial airliner was a luxury most Americans could only dream of, much less afford. Ticket prices where 10 times the cost of today's prices in real dollars. Only the rich could afford to fly. Passenger loads where 5% of today's volume. The accident rate was amazingly higher per passenger mile flown with these "supermen" pilots with big egos, who thought the guy in right seat should speak only when spoken too. (Pre CRM) Evidently there are still some of these "dinosaurs" still out there who think they are the only ones qualified to turn the knobs on a FMS. It is all about supply and demand. It seems some "old school pilots" are actually hoping for accidents to occur to prove their point about how unsafe the skies are. They are like democrats who assume the public is too dumb to know what is best for them.

In the future there will be a dog and a pilot in the cockpit, the dog's job will be to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

So what you are saying is that the profession today is made up of substandard losers.. that flying planes is easier than it was in yesteryear, and requires a much lower caliber individual with less judgement, skill, and innate ability (due to things like EGPWS, TCAS, RADAR, FMS, GLASS etc)..

To which I'd say, sure I agree... but what if all that magic were to fail? How many of today's 500hour ERAU wonders flying their all glass C-172's could fly an NDB or VOR approach with just an RMI?

QUOTE]
To which I'd say, sure I agree... but what if all that magic were to fail? How many of today's 500hour ERAU wonders flying their all glass C-172's could fly an NDB or VOR approach with just an RMI?[/QUOTE]

Somewhere between none and very few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flight25 (Post 134834)

Only one problem with your comparison. The doctor or lawyer or MBA are getting an EDUCATION where as the pilot is getting TRAINING. Doctors, lawyers and MBAs can go out and hang their own shingle. Pilots on the other hand are dependent on an employer and thus can not demand the pay others can. Even the MBA who works for a company has more ability to influence his pay because his skill set is likely much greater. If for instance he cant get paid what he deems a fair wage in the auto industry he can take his skill set to say the banking industry. Pilots on the other hand have no where else to go but another aviation employer. Pilots are trained and not educated. That is why anyone who goes into aviation with an aviation degree has little flexibility to move where as a business degree or a similar degree can help a pilot move onto other lucrative jobs, if needed.

Good point... I always knew I would be working for someone else.

The regionals, just like any other company, are driven by the cost of regulation compliance, price of and the hedging of fuel, and what the PAX are willing pay. You get what you pay for. Remember in the 80's when the average age of a flight instructor (from what I remember) was +30. Next thing you know we will have two pilots from India in the front seat making $5/hr and loving every minute of it. And the public could care less. If you want to make money when starting out in the industry, go do the 135 and make +40K. Then go for the majors if that is what aspire to do.

That's part of the problem...hence we NEED

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Originally Posted by Flight25 (Post 134834)

Very good point. Also, Doctors, Lawyers, etc. are paying their Malpractice Insurance and airline pilots are not. . . . .

Training vs. Education. One would think that an educated individual would NOT take a skilled labor position for $19/hr . . . . (1000 hrs MAX yr) or roughly $9.50/hr (figuring average employee works (2000 hrs yearly). I think rampers in ORD/DEN/DFW/ATL make more than this per hour.

Using your argument I would have to agree that pilots do not seem to be educated enough to figure this out. Lots of the problem I see is that EMOTION vs. LOGIC is used making the decision to become an airline pilot.

If I were graduating college today and told my parents that I was taking a $9.50/hr. job, I would probably be buried in an oak box 6' under the earth before I could collect my first $380.00 weekly paycheck BEFORE taxes.

cruiseclimb,
did you see my last post? can you admit that you were wrong about what you think i said?

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Originally Posted by Freightpuppy (Post 135893)

cruiseclimb,
did you see my last post? can you admit that you were wrong about what you think i said?

I saw your last post.. and thank you for for your regards about military pilots, but you still come across as a bit misinformed. Your post about old schoolers, legacy pilots, the reasons why you feel the industry is in the state it's in etc... all kind of rubs me wrong. It comes across as opionions with no fact to support them. Lot's of people here in the regional threads are like that, so you're not alone. I'm sure you have much more savy in other areas given your previous experiences, but for now, you seem to have a little more to learn about this industry. I probably read it wrong, so don't mind me... I'm nobody special. Take care and fly safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flight25 (Post 134834)

. . . The doctor or lawyer or MBA are getting an EDUCATION where as the pilot is getting TRAINING. . . . . . Pilots are trained and not educated. . . . .

Interesting statement. I completed my degree ten years into a military flying career which means I was trained but not educated. Fast forward another twenty years (and more education) - I was a college professor teaching Business Management at a liberal arts college. BUSINESS and RETIRED MILITARY at a liberal arts college means you are a "hind quarter of beef hanging in a shark tank."

Greek, Latin, Economics, History etc. prepared their students for ANY position of responsibility in the modern world - so they promoted. Committees studied "How the graduates should think." One professor who had done nothing in her life except go to class and get a new Volvo from daddy each year claimed, "They should literally sit on the hill and determine how they can benefit society and the world." I said, "BS Lady, they are trying to figure out how to make their first car payment."

"Education is a term often used to refer to formal education . The word's broader meaning covers a range of experiences, from formal learning to the building of understanding and knowledge through day to day experiences."

We are all educated !

" Vocational education (or Vocational Education and Training (VET), also called Career and Technical Education (CTE)) prepares learners for careers that are based in manual or practical activities, traditionally non-academic and directly related to a specific trade, occupation or vocation, hence the term, in which the learner participates." . . . . . "Training refers to the acquisition of knowledge, skills, and competencies as a result of the teaching of vocational or practical skills and knowledge that relates to specific useful skills."

Pilots receive extensive Vocational Education and Training.

After six years of teaching, I returned to aviation but kept in contact with many of my students. Their conclusion: It didn't matter what degree you had - Business, Greek Studies, (even Aeronuatical Science) etc. - you have proven you have the ability to learn. Now the business world will teach you their "way of doing things." Go to graduate school to get additional vocational training - MD, MBA, Law, etc. Medicine and law are specific trades.

My opinion - a degree IS NOT required to fly an airplane. It's looks good on the resume and proves you have the ability to learn although a 2.0 GPA in "Underwater Basket Weaving" degree is questionable.

Have pride in being a well educated pilot whose responsibilities and life experiences far exceed those of a history professor with a new Volvo.