Knobcrk1

Read the stuff you wrote about TSA training. There’s nothing factual there, just excuses. You didn’t get to practice flows in GFS? That’s what the rest of the 20 hours of the day is for. All the stuff about Houston and guys being sent there doesn’t matter, you were in Stl and still couldn’t complete it in time. If you don’t complete it properly, your schedule will change and you will get different instructors or seat mates, that’s at all airlines. That’s not TSAs fault. As far as the sim sessions at 20, I mean who’s to say you would have passed PSA if it was your first go at airline training? You even said the learning curve was too steep for you at TSA. TSA helped you pass there for sure.

Duffman

FWIW, I found his post informative. He said he was unprepared for the sims at TSA with a causal factor being that TSA didn't dedicate time during training to learn flows and call-outs. You shouldn't be stumbling over basics in the sim, you should be focusing on the finer points of your global SA, so not knowing your flows is a death sentence. It's a training program so it's assumed that they'll make it very clear what you should be studying every night and it sounds like they did not.

Inevitably most people would probably figure out that they should be studying flows/call-outs on their own before sims, whether it's from prior experience, because they got gouge from someone more senior, they have exceptional foresight, or they got lucky and found it somewhere else, but if it's not in the formal training program, there's no way to guarantee that everyone knows what they should be doing. As a result, even with holes in the training, most people will still pass, but TSA will lose out on some good pilots. I imagine TSA's goal is not to just be an all-expense-paid prep school for other airlines, so information like this sounds like a simple fix that could save them lots of money and resources. Just my .02

rickair7777

This discussion is useful because there are wide variations in regional training programs.

Everything from old skool "here's the manuals, sink or swim" that many of us grew up with to the more modern spoon-fed variety.

If you're not young with 1000 hours of recent CFI or 135 experience, "old skool" might not be for you.

NeverHome

For me: I’m a TSA CA. Second regional. My new hire initial training was garbage. For the record I passed in the minimum sims, and first time around.

The first ground instructor just clicked through the slides (indoc stuff). Second guy didn’t know squat about systems. First guy is no longer at TSA, second guy doesn’t actively teach ground.

Sims in Houston. Holy crap Batman. That was the worst. They would intentionally tell us wrong info because they thought their approach was better. My sim instructor was removed from the certificate because his very high failure rate.

My first IOE instructor was doing it for the cash and gave zero [MOD EDIT]. Second IOE instructor was actually phenomenal. He knew how to teach and was interested in seeing my development.

So ya, TSA varies widely in training experience

AirlineMerc

You nailed it on the head, and I figured out too late the timing of what needed to be learned when. But even the instructors admitted to not knowing how to teach the flows and callouts because they had just been revised. Three different instructors, including Paul, came in asking just how the flows worked. So we didn’t even have a full demonstration of the flows and really was a try and figure out what the training department wanted. My partner and I spent many frustrating hours in front of the paper tiger going through flows and callouts HOPING we were doing it correctly.

In the end, yes, TSA turned into an all expenses paid prep school, just as you said. They even paid for the ATP/CTP course that my next airline didn’t have to. In fact, because I already had the course under my belt, I was able to get into a class three months earlier than others who were given offers the same day I was because there was a waitlist for the ATP/CTP course. So, for the good things i took from TSA, I’m grateful.

Regarding the suggestion that there’s no way to tell that I would have been successful if I had gone to PSA first...It’s possible, but unlikely. We were given the tools we needed, particularly for flows and callouts, in advance of ground school, and we were told in no uncertain terms what needed to be learned and automatic by the time we went to sims.

sflpilot

The complaints about FlightSafety St. Louis are somewhat valid. In my experience training there they leave a lot to be desired. However in the old days most people picked up the slack and got it done.I remember towards the beginning of ground school someone asked generally speaking about needing extra simulators and the director of training said basically no if you can’t get it done in eight you’re out. In today’s world they are hiring people that they wouldn’t have even spoken to years ago.To be honest the airlines brought this on themselves. They spent years and years demoralizing people paying them $25,000 a year. And now look what they have left.

Knobcrk1

That’s too bad and that was partly because they expanded so much with new flying that they needed to farm out the training. But not anymore. All sim is done by TSA instructors now. Even in Houston.

Knobcrk1

You literally have like 2 weeks before sim of doing nothing but sitting in front of a gfs or paper cockpit to work on flows while waiting for yiur oral. In fact in my opinion it’s overkill. You honestly didn’t know or they didn’t tell you how to open up your SOP and practice flows during this time? I don’t buy it.

Mjm8710

I’m not saying all 121 programs are created equal but...

The guys that didn’t do well at my airline just didn’t put in the required effort, and some had a mentality that they would spoon feed like high school or college and they would be just fine. A 121 training program is no joke. It was twice as intense as any college course I took. Lots of info in a very short amount of time, and the company is investing a lot in you so you don’t have any other option than to learn it. You need to go into it wanting it, and giving it your 100% all. I say this and I’m sure it still won’t resonate with some people. Also one or two people in particular I know spent entirely way too much time on the phone in class texting or on the phone in their free time after class which I’m sure put the nail in the coffin. It can be a very tough balance with family/girlfriends/boyfriends while you’re gone, but it’s important to also keep focused. Whatever you do, don’t leave town every weekend. Weekends are still an important time to study. My company discouraged it for a reason and it’s pretty clear why..just keep yourself focused.

My days would consist of going to class 9-5 (taking detailed notes, PAYING ATTENTION, and being engaged with the class-don’t fall asleep like half the people), going back to the hotel to grab a quick bite to eat, then studying until I fell asleep (not hit the bar or go out every night). Some nights I stayed up later than others reviewing things..speaking of that I found note cards to be the best way for me to study. I prob had a couple hundred of them by the time I got done. You would feel mentally burned out by the weekend, and at that point I would pick either a Saturday or Sunday as my day to relax-I would still study, but it was my low key day to get other things done like laundry, catch up with family, hang with classmates, or even catch a quick flick. Really it required 6 days of the week of study. Don’t want to study more systems, fine then study flows or callouts (chair fly)-if you’re lucky to know someone in the company already call them up and ask lots of questions-this is gold.

Lastly, at both airlines I was at, from day one they made it clear the best way to study was with a partner. Find someone with the same study habits as you, and bounce questions off eachother or look stuff up together which saves time. This 100% helped me get through some of the systems since I found it to be my weakest area and even more important before I went into sims with my partner. My partner helped me with my weak areas and I helped in his.

If you don’t have any ideas about your flows-ASK. The instructors are there to teach you, not to make your life difficult. If I had a question about a flow and couldn’t get my answer through my classmates, I wouldn’t leave the building until I asked the instructor for clarity.

Not trying to preach or come down hard but you can’t go into this looking to be spoon fed. I was not an A student ever in my life, but realize it just requires me to put in twice the effort as everyone else-which I’m okay with since it got me through but it sucked I’m not going to lie.

Lastly, don’t get too hung up on wash out rates-that’s a bad way to go into it, and you’re going to stress yourself out worrying about failing for the entire couple weeks. Try to have fun with the process, you’re doing something that very few people get the opportunity to do. The people that put in the effort required of themselves will find a way to succeed. My 2 cents.

Fixnem2Flyinem

Nail hit directly on the head with this one..

I will say the airframe you plan on flying can increase/decrease the difficulty a little bit. The new ERJ is as automated as it can get, any more automation and why would they even require us to still sit in the plane.... I kid I kid

Show up with a good attitude, ready to learn and at a fast pace. Don’t be that guy more worried about tinder hook ups and bar outings than memory items or emergency procedures, can’t believe that advice even has to be given in such a serious profession with the amount of responsibility we have lol