Well 1000 SIC in 121 means upgradeable to captain, what does 1000 SIC in charter get you?

 

A job. A thousand hours. Experience.

Perhaps you simply think that the pinnacle of life is to be a 121 captain.

Has the 135 SIC been paid? Then (s)he got paid, perhaps benefits, perhaps exposure. Perhaps greater total experience or time that leads to a particular job.

At this moment in time, it may be that a little self-entitled curtain climber can fall into a 121 cockpit with nothing but hope and bare ATP qualifications, but this has not always been the case, and it will not always be the case. Perhaps you lack the experience, or perhaps you've been in the industry for too short a time to know this.

1,000 hours of time, PIC or SIC, may be recognized by insurance, or an employer. It may be the road to the PIC job in the 135 operation. It may be a lot of things. It's still a thousand hours.

 

You fell right into his trap, he was spring loaded. Part 135 SIC is the holy grail for him.

 

That really depends on your perspective, I guess.

From my perspective, with a lot of hours as a 135 SIC, 121 SIC, and a number of years as a 121 widebody captain, I don't particularly see 135 SIC as a bad thing. From your experience, junior, how do you see it?

 

A pilot who has logged 1500 hours of light SE and ME and completed the standard ATP and comes to train to fly a jet is starting something totally new to them. Some do well and many struggle. The 1500 hours they needed to get the ATP in most cases did nothing to qualify them for the training and job they are about to undertake. If those same pilots were to fly in a 135 crew environment from 250 hours as they are allowed to do with just a commercial, they would arrive to 121 training with the experience doing the very thing that they will be trained on. IMHO that actually enhances safety. A just trained 1500 hour ATP let loose on the world of 121 with nothing more than GA time will see a lot of firsts with those 121 passengers on board.

If the ATP rule were to be changed and its a big IF, I'd say it matters more the type of hours. I wouldn't be worried about reducing the requirements for a restricted ATP to even 750 hours if those hours were achieved in a way that gives the pilot real world experience. 500 hours of jet SIC beats 1500 hours of GA flying any day IMO. I think that would enhance, not degrade safety. Again just one guy's opinion who's been working to train these pilots for a long time.

 

Yep, it's an entirely different kind of flying, all together.

 

The airline transport pilot certification requirements do not stipulate that hours flown must "qualify" an individual for a job, or for any future training which the individual must undertake. This is not a requirement of an pilot certificate.

One who obtains a commercial pilot certificate and then seeks to be an aerial applicator has not been prepared to crop dust; one has obtained commercial certification: one has achieved the minimum pilot certification with a privilege to fly for compensation or hire. One could go any direction from there, whether it's crop dusting, towing banners, flying charter, or any number of other things. Hours flown to get to the minimum requirement to apply for and obtain commercial certification are not in any way required to be oriented to a given job. They are FAA-mandated requirements for pilot certification.

The ATP pilot certificate has FAA-mandated requirements that must be met in order to obtain that level of certification. There are multiple methods of satisfying the experience requirements. A total time of 1,500 hours is only one of those paths. The ATP may be obtained with less. The ATP pilot may be working for an airline, or doing any number of other things: the FAA does not make assumptions as to the. path the holder of the ATP will take, but merely sets the requirements for obtaining the ATP certification. This includes total experience, specifics regarding night, cross country, instruction received, etc...just like any other pilot certificate. The FAA also sets the same performance standards for the ATP as for a type rating.

The FAA, as mandated by congress, has established that all 121 airline pilos, whether PIC or SIC, will hold an ATP certificate.

Imagine. an airline pilot holding an airline pilot certificate. Go figure.

 

I would agree whole heartily that better experience than SE VFR would greatly improve the quality of avator that transitions to a jet cockpit, regardless of it being 121, 135, 91K or corporate. If every future professional could fly in the right seat of a turboprop freighter at 500 hours for the next 300-500 hours, the airlines hiring them (and by extension the captain's obliged to bring them up to speed) would have a better trained/experienced product to mold. The problem is, there are not enough SIC seats nor any systemic program to shepherd inexperienced professionals to the next level. Ameriflight has had a program to allow airmen to fly in the right seat, as best I can tell, the FAR's do not require an SIC for its type of operation and there is no incentive to even make this seat even available. In aircraft that aren't certified requiring an SIC, a pilot can't log time toward ME time and as such loses the ability to gain experience while logging time. You still need 25 ME for the ATP but are obliged to seek other avenues to get those hours.

If the requirements for the CPL required more X-country and required it to be after the INST rating while flying on a INST flight plan, at least the 250 hour student would have been obliged to get some real world experience with ATC beyond what is currently required for the instrument rating. There are definitely ways the system could improve the experience new aviators get before they reach the level of a 121 cockpit but as of today the FAA doesn't see fit to use the levers it has to improve the experience level required for the CPL. IMHO, it should.

 

The rule already allows 750 hours for military trained pilots. There are several entry points for the ATP and all vary by education, training and experience. the catch all 1500 hours is only for those with no formal aviation education combined with formal training. In other words, the existing rule already recognizes the differences.

Is a 1000 SIC in 135 better than 1000 CFI preventing newbies from killing you, and knowing aviation well enough to explain and teach it to others? Certainly a topic for a good debate. All they're saying is by 1500 hours, even in a C150 going in circles you've learned enough to move on. Have others learned more, and will they be better prepared, absolutely. It's just the minimum experience required without the formal education and training, not the maximum.

 

If the OpSpec requires an SIC, then yes the SIC can log that time.