Pinnacle Contract Talks
07-16-2007, 02:50 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
Originally Posted by higney85
Ya know, I had a good buddy of mine ask me this just a couple days ago on the golf course (my second home 
) and it made me think... here is the abridged version.
The pay is almost comical, the FA's are a big hit or miss (some frankly scare me with stupidity), the CA's (at least 99% of them) are nice guys, good pilots, and are great to fly with- yet hate the company, mgmt has their own agenda which helped the stock price and investors, yet has hurt every employee (but financially and physically/mentally), and has seriously handicapped future growth with the "chess moves" in relation to the contract issues. So why would I work here, or not steer someone else away?
Well, in no particular order and somewhat personal reasons, the bases are MEM, DTW, MSP. The fleet is all jet. The upgrade is quick. The pilot group is great. Pulse and multi/comm is "competitive"- helps for those just coming out of college with low time (was not a reason for me). The possibility and probrability of a contract coming around and really changing things is growing better and better every day. All of these reasons are public knowledge and gives no "insider" or "first hand" opinions.
Now here is what I would say to anyone considering 9E using only my personal experiences. If you are looking to start off a career- whether 121 or wanting to simply build the jet time to go corporate/fractional/135- PNCL can be a blessing for you. I was "hired" as a "contractor" for 2.5 months where you will be spoonfed everything in ground school, CPT, and sims- some will make it and some won't. You will now get 400/wk, 750 after OE, 500 after 6 months, and hotel paid for in training. That doesn't sound TOO bad except you are technically not an "employee" yet- meaning no benes and no taxes being taken out. You are a "contractor" so on the 1099-MISC that shows up you get to pay "self employment tax" for training! You become an official "employee" when you pass the checkride. Thats a load of crap- but take it or leave it. When I went through almost a year ago it was hotel + $200/wk- thats it. After you hit the line reserve is short lived and you will get 10 days off a month. Within just a few months you will hold a decent line and get 13-15 days off depending on the trips you like or when you work. 2-day trips/4-day trips/weekends. I am not even done with my first year of probation and I am able to work the schedule around to get 16 days off and weekends off! Not to say that this makes scheduling an easy thing to deal with- I have been right at 100 hours a month for the last 3 months! Just a little earlier today I got a call (voicemail got a call
) for a Junior man trip- its my bday and there is even a comment on my schedule because I traded a trip to get today off! To top it off I am at 98+ hours for the month so anything they did today would cause them to change trips later in the month to keep me legal. While I do complain it is kinda nice to know that if I was just one year older I could upgrade- not many places you need to wait to turn 23 to upgrade on a jet after being at a regional for such a short period of time! Attrition here is HIGH- many reasons for that. I have never told someone that they should come work for PNCL, I don't get paid enough to be a recruiter- although a referral bonus program is now in place to try and "bribe" current employees to send their friends on over. Everyone has their own reasons to go where they go, and frankly if MEM wasn't home I probrably would not have send a resume in. I enjoy flying but the trips that we have only end because if we had another turn the pilots would call "fatigue". I am in pretty good shape and can function on little sleep but reduced rest overnights, scheduling calling at 3am to tell me that my show time is 15min later to give us required rest, and "extensions" really wear you down! These are the issues that get filed under the public knowledge "contract" column. The regional is a "stepping stone" and for those who can afford to make less than a mcdonalds worker for a year to get jet time, then by second year hop into the left seat and get PIC time (at 100 hours/mo) and make about $60K 9E can be a godsend. Its a big "to each their own" situation. I personally feel that things will be much different within 1 year because a contract will show up, we have ridiculous attrition and more flying- the cards are in the pilot group's hands. Mgmt will be forced to do something soon (contract) because they won't be able to hold onto NW and DL flying unless they can not only attract, but retain pilots. To add insult to injury Colgan is going ALPA and has Q400's showing up (I believe Dec of this year) and are short on pilots on that side! If something isn't done it will get VERY interesting for PNCL holdings!
So to sum it up- there are negatives, there are positives, and the negatives will be gone (for the most part) as soon as a contract arrives..... hopefully soon... negotiations start back up in just over a week. Hope that helps some who are not familiar with both sides of PNCL.
) and it made me think... here is the abridged version.The pay is almost comical, the FA's are a big hit or miss (some frankly scare me with stupidity), the CA's (at least 99% of them) are nice guys, good pilots, and are great to fly with- yet hate the company, mgmt has their own agenda which helped the stock price and investors, yet has hurt every employee (but financially and physically/mentally), and has seriously handicapped future growth with the "chess moves" in relation to the contract issues. So why would I work here, or not steer someone else away?
Well, in no particular order and somewhat personal reasons, the bases are MEM, DTW, MSP. The fleet is all jet. The upgrade is quick. The pilot group is great. Pulse and multi/comm is "competitive"- helps for those just coming out of college with low time (was not a reason for me). The possibility and probrability of a contract coming around and really changing things is growing better and better every day. All of these reasons are public knowledge and gives no "insider" or "first hand" opinions.
Now here is what I would say to anyone considering 9E using only my personal experiences. If you are looking to start off a career- whether 121 or wanting to simply build the jet time to go corporate/fractional/135- PNCL can be a blessing for you. I was "hired" as a "contractor" for 2.5 months where you will be spoonfed everything in ground school, CPT, and sims- some will make it and some won't. You will now get 400/wk, 750 after OE, 500 after 6 months, and hotel paid for in training. That doesn't sound TOO bad except you are technically not an "employee" yet- meaning no benes and no taxes being taken out. You are a "contractor" so on the 1099-MISC that shows up you get to pay "self employment tax" for training! You become an official "employee" when you pass the checkride. Thats a load of crap- but take it or leave it. When I went through almost a year ago it was hotel + $200/wk- thats it. After you hit the line reserve is short lived and you will get 10 days off a month. Within just a few months you will hold a decent line and get 13-15 days off depending on the trips you like or when you work. 2-day trips/4-day trips/weekends. I am not even done with my first year of probation and I am able to work the schedule around to get 16 days off and weekends off! Not to say that this makes scheduling an easy thing to deal with- I have been right at 100 hours a month for the last 3 months! Just a little earlier today I got a call (voicemail got a call
) for a Junior man trip- its my bday and there is even a comment on my schedule because I traded a trip to get today off! To top it off I am at 98+ hours for the month so anything they did today would cause them to change trips later in the month to keep me legal. While I do complain it is kinda nice to know that if I was just one year older I could upgrade- not many places you need to wait to turn 23 to upgrade on a jet after being at a regional for such a short period of time! Attrition here is HIGH- many reasons for that. I have never told someone that they should come work for PNCL, I don't get paid enough to be a recruiter- although a referral bonus program is now in place to try and "bribe" current employees to send their friends on over. Everyone has their own reasons to go where they go, and frankly if MEM wasn't home I probrably would not have send a resume in. I enjoy flying but the trips that we have only end because if we had another turn the pilots would call "fatigue". I am in pretty good shape and can function on little sleep but reduced rest overnights, scheduling calling at 3am to tell me that my show time is 15min later to give us required rest, and "extensions" really wear you down! These are the issues that get filed under the public knowledge "contract" column. The regional is a "stepping stone" and for those who can afford to make less than a mcdonalds worker for a year to get jet time, then by second year hop into the left seat and get PIC time (at 100 hours/mo) and make about $60K 9E can be a godsend. Its a big "to each their own" situation. I personally feel that things will be much different within 1 year because a contract will show up, we have ridiculous attrition and more flying- the cards are in the pilot group's hands. Mgmt will be forced to do something soon (contract) because they won't be able to hold onto NW and DL flying unless they can not only attract, but retain pilots. To add insult to injury Colgan is going ALPA and has Q400's showing up (I believe Dec of this year) and are short on pilots on that side! If something isn't done it will get VERY interesting for PNCL holdings! So to sum it up- there are negatives, there are positives, and the negatives will be gone (for the most part) as soon as a contract arrives..... hopefully soon... negotiations start back up in just over a week. Hope that helps some who are not familiar with both sides of PNCL.
My first year of pinnacle I made more than my friend at horizon did I was getting paid 21 he was getting paid 29. After 1 year and 8 months, I have flown almost 800 hours more than he has in the same time fram and I am in upgrade training right now and am almost done.
Thats why I came to Pinnacle.
Thats why you come to pinnacle.
07-16-2007, 04:10 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by PinnacleFO
My first year of pinnacle I made more than my friend at horizon did I was getting paid 21 he was getting paid 29. After 1 year and 8 months, I have flown almost 800 hours more than he has in the same time fram and I am in upgrade training right now and am almost done.
Thats why I came to Pinnacle.
Thats why you come to pinnacle.
Thats why I came to Pinnacle.
Thats why you come to pinnacle.
07-16-2007, 04:31 PM
#13
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,535
FWIW with the massive (sarcasm) $20.73/hr pay rate and low per diem rate if you fly a line (no reserve) you CAN hit $2500/mo. I am on my way to $28K on my 2007 W-2 even with the first 2 months of the year on reserve. The "system" can be worked. Last month I credited 110hrs of pay, flew 98 and didn't even dip into open time. This month looks just as promising due to being bought off for a couple trips and being reassigned trips that happen to go 3 hours over the original time and get tagged at 150% (contract). They are SUPER short on pilots so those who are here (especially living in base) can make 1.5x pay often if you want to dip into open time and get that 100hrs/mo- I will not get into the "helping the company" argument by picking up open time.. cause most line holders (including myself) CAN'T since the lines are built to 95hrs, but you can do some swaps (got my bday and a couple weekends off 
) and end up with an extra couple hours of pay which gets tagged at 150%. I CANNOT wait til a contract shows up, but in the meantime its not pure hell (as long as you are a lineholder). If you are young- or even just unattached and dont mind working for the time/pay you can do ok til the upgrade class starts. I am only away from home 10 nights this whole month. In the meantime I will get back to enjoying my 16 days off! It will not be a year to brag about but to fly 1000 hours of jet time and make $28K when only making $21 an hour isn't bad- not to mention the fact that we are NOT signing unless we get RETRO PAY!!! I am not saying its for everyone, but if you live in a base and want to work some long, hard hours to get your "dues" paid in a hurry the company is worth consideration. There are positives and negatives to every company and there is always something that could be better, but there are companies that do pay worse first year with a longer upgrade and work rules that are simply the FAA rules.
) and end up with an extra couple hours of pay which gets tagged at 150%. I CANNOT wait til a contract shows up, but in the meantime its not pure hell (as long as you are a lineholder). If you are young- or even just unattached and dont mind working for the time/pay you can do ok til the upgrade class starts. I am only away from home 10 nights this whole month. In the meantime I will get back to enjoying my 16 days off! It will not be a year to brag about but to fly 1000 hours of jet time and make $28K when only making $21 an hour isn't bad- not to mention the fact that we are NOT signing unless we get RETRO PAY!!! I am not saying its for everyone, but if you live in a base and want to work some long, hard hours to get your "dues" paid in a hurry the company is worth consideration. There are positives and negatives to every company and there is always something that could be better, but there are companies that do pay worse first year with a longer upgrade and work rules that are simply the FAA rules.
07-16-2007, 04:32 PM
#14
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,535
Originally Posted by Inbluskyz
That's why I'm coming to Pinnacle, that is, if I am offered a job after my interview on Wednesday.
07-16-2007, 06:47 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
Airsupport and Higney, Why do you guys love Pinnacle so much? Might put you in a better situation come contract time not to recruit all these kids for Pinnacle. $21 and $24 an hour with terrible work rules? I know things will hopefully change but until they can't fill the seats, why fix something if it's not broken? You guys deserve way more.
Me too as a new FO already hold a line, my reserve time was a month and for the last few months been holding 90+ lines (out of choice mind you!) with more than 11 days off on each month. Been avging on all months as a line holder credit time for 100+ hours. Don't think you can argue with that?....
Just like highney said, each to their own agenda. When you come to 9E just like any other airline you know what's on the stake, what are the advantages and the disadvantages. If you study hard, and keep it sharp you will mostly have fun times with everybody to include check airmen.
With a good bunch of people around ya, people can go through very rough times. ".... I get by with a lil help from my friends..." ?
Also not sure if this is the place, and how it is in other outfits - but it seems like whenever there's an occasion that necessitates help for causes that are non airline related - everybody puts in around here. Cancer, MP, a hardship within the family - you name it, people here have contributed to it out of their own pockets and time.
07-16-2007, 07:02 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 389
Nowadays you pay your dues flying around (soon to be) 76-90 seat aircraft?But that's ok because you got in your jet at 250 hours. Actually, Pinnacle came to you before you even graduated from college (UND) to hire you on with your 220 hours. There is a reason they have to resort to Jet U guys.
Higney, What are you bidding in base? I think you are giving a lot of people a false impression, but hey you may get 500 bucks out of the deal. Just seems short sighted to me. When you do turn 23 and you are an RJ captain, your going to have to be flying with inexperienced pilots because your company cannot compete with work rules and $$ to get pilots, they have to resort to lowering the hiring standards to get "qualified" people.
Higney, What are you bidding in base? I think you are giving a lot of people a false impression, but hey you may get 500 bucks out of the deal. Just seems short sighted to me. When you do turn 23 and you are an RJ captain, your going to have to be flying with inexperienced pilots because your company cannot compete with work rules and $$ to get pilots, they have to resort to lowering the hiring standards to get "qualified" people.
07-16-2007, 07:12 PM
#17
DisplAAced
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: EMB-145 FO
Posts: 638
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
Nowadays you pay your dues flying around (soon to be) 76-90 seat aircraft?But that's ok because you got in your jet at 250 hours. Actually, Pinnacle came to you before you even graduated from college (UND) to hire you on with your 220 hours. There is a reason they have to resort to Jet U guys.
Higney, What are you bidding in base? I think you are giving a lot of people a false impression, but hey you may get 500 bucks out of the deal. Just seems short sighted to me. When you do turn 23 and you are an RJ captain, your going to have to be flying with inexperienced pilots because your company cannot compete with work rules and $$ to get pilots, they have to resort to lowering the hiring standards to get "qualified" people.
Higney, What are you bidding in base? I think you are giving a lot of people a false impression, but hey you may get 500 bucks out of the deal. Just seems short sighted to me. When you do turn 23 and you are an RJ captain, your going to have to be flying with inexperienced pilots because your company cannot compete with work rules and $$ to get pilots, they have to resort to lowering the hiring standards to get "qualified" people.
07-16-2007, 08:56 PM
#18
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,535
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
Nowadays you pay your dues flying around (soon to be) 76-90 seat aircraft?But that's ok because you got in your jet at 250 hours. Actually, Pinnacle came to you before you even graduated from college (UND) to hire you on with your 220 hours. There is a reason they have to resort to Jet U guys.
Higney, What are you bidding in base? I think you are giving a lot of people a false impression, but hey you may get 500 bucks out of the deal. Just seems short sighted to me. When you do turn 23 and you are an RJ captain, your going to have to be flying with inexperienced pilots because your company cannot compete with work rules and $$ to get pilots, they have to resort to lowering the hiring standards to get "qualified" people.
Higney, What are you bidding in base? I think you are giving a lot of people a false impression, but hey you may get 500 bucks out of the deal. Just seems short sighted to me. When you do turn 23 and you are an RJ captain, your going to have to be flying with inexperienced pilots because your company cannot compete with work rules and $$ to get pilots, they have to resort to lowering the hiring standards to get "qualified" people.
There is a high probrability of some b*tching by the 9E pilot group in a couple days when we see what prefbid churns out.... I have not been doing quite as well with prefbid (practice runs) but even the #1 seniority guy in the company can't get what he wants so there are some big issues with this... august will be interesting to say the least!
Let me know if there are any questions...
07-16-2007, 09:03 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by coldpilot
Sorry to hear you think that people are getting hired at PNCL out of UND at 220 hours. Their minimums for us are 400TT/50ME and completion of our CRJ course, which happens to be a requirement to graduate with the Commercial Aviation major to begin with. If you want to talk about a company for hiring people out of UND with 220TT start talking about Mesaba. I have 3 people in one of my classes that were all hired at Mesaba with around 220TT.
07-17-2007, 12:22 AM
#20
DisplAAced
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: EMB-145 FO
Posts: 638
Originally Posted by sigep_nm
Nice try chachi but didnt happen, no one at Mesaba was hired with 220TT. If you looked at the seniority list most of the people that are at XJ were instructors when you were a ppl. But you probably werent around in 1999. And by the way your company did hire someone below 250, cause I know who he is, and yes he did pass training, and no you are not a 200 FO just yet, enjoy your jet.
a) Not having 400TT
b) Not having the ATP written
c) Not having a current 1st class medical
I'm not trying to get into a pi$$ing match here, just stating the facts.
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