Comair updates?
03-03-2011 | 07:36 PM
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From: Professional Monkey Trainer
I understand you're trying to make a point, but there is no need to assume I need to read something multiple times in order to understand it. I am reasonably good at communicating within the English language.
I agree with you 100% that there should be no career regional airlines. There should be a job available at every legacy airline for every regional airline pilot who wants one. By the way, that job should become available before that regional pilot turns 40, so the risk of being furloughed after leaving the top 25% of their regional's seniority list is adequately offset by their future earnings potential. - Hint...there's a little sarcasm there.
When that day arrives, there will be no need for reasonable pay and benefits at the regional level.
There are any number of reasons a pilot may decide to stay at a regional vs. moving on, and judging another pilot's decision with one's own personal myopic perspective is not going to produce the highest quality opinion.
At no point in my post did I write that PPAS doesn't save money overall. Perhaps you might want to revisit what you quoted to verify that. PPAS may or may not save costs overall, that is above our pay grade as pilots to know.
What PPAS does though, is make crewmembers less productive (and therefore more expensive) relative to crewmembers at other airlines who are not using PPAS. We're not comparing Comair to Delta, and I never wrote that cost index flying isn't the most efficient way to complete a flight.
What I wrote is when management criticizes my pay with one side of their mouth, then tells me I'm not allowed to be as productive as a Freedom, Chautaqua, ASA, SkyWest, or...for Christ's sake...Big Sky pilot (yes they were a Delta Connection carrier for a period of time), with the other side of their mouth, they lose credibility.
Anyone who was a pilot at Comair when PPAS was introduced...and for years afterward, knows Comair was the only regional in the Delta network using PPAS. We've all heard this conversation time and again:
ATC: Comair xxxx, say speed?
Comair xxxx: mach .64
ATC: Freedom xxxx, say speed?
Freedom xxxx: mach .77
ATC: Candler/Acey xxx, say speed?
Candler/Acey xxx: mach .78
The point of my using the PPAS example is not to discredit the benefit it may or may not provide. The point is employees who are handcuffed to their desk are not going to get work done on the other side of their office.
Throw in a manager who stands in the corner of the office and berates the employee because their paid too much relative to the guy in the office next door who management hasn't handcuffed to his desk, and you have a reasonably accurate metaphor for what has been going on at Comair for some time.
Certainly there is an "experience premium" associated with Comair. That entire organization should be proud of the level of experience they have/had, vs. ashamed of it. I know I'd rather have a crew with 40 years of combined experience operating the aircraft I'm deadheading on, than a crew with three years total experience.
I am aware the G.O. was built a number of years ago. I don't "adore" any of Comair's leaders, but for the fact that prior to Delta turning the Comair President's job into nothing more than that of a secretary who answers the telephone when it rings from Atlanta, the leadership at Comair had some degree of control over the company's destiny.
It's strange to me that you would write this: "Long story short - if you think the strike had no impact on Comair, rather Comair failed because of the big GO and PPAS, you are living in a dream world." because I never wrote that the strike had no impact on Comair. Can you find where I wrote that?
The purpose of my original post on this subject was to suggest that what Comair has operated through during the last decade is perhaps a little more complex than the black & white, 15-yr. old, Beavis & Butthead world, and those who proclaim the responsibility for Comair's problems lie exclusively with the strike might do well to look a little deeper beyond one single event over the last decade.
I do live in a dream world. Comair's future, Delta's future, and the aviation industry's future, as a whole is, to my family's financial security and well being...what's the word I'm looking for?
Irrelevant.
That doesn't mean I want any of the above entities to fail.
I agree with you 100% that there should be no career regional airlines. There should be a job available at every legacy airline for every regional airline pilot who wants one. By the way, that job should become available before that regional pilot turns 40, so the risk of being furloughed after leaving the top 25% of their regional's seniority list is adequately offset by their future earnings potential. - Hint...there's a little sarcasm there.
When that day arrives, there will be no need for reasonable pay and benefits at the regional level.
There are any number of reasons a pilot may decide to stay at a regional vs. moving on, and judging another pilot's decision with one's own personal myopic perspective is not going to produce the highest quality opinion.
At no point in my post did I write that PPAS doesn't save money overall. Perhaps you might want to revisit what you quoted to verify that. PPAS may or may not save costs overall, that is above our pay grade as pilots to know.
What PPAS does though, is make crewmembers less productive (and therefore more expensive) relative to crewmembers at other airlines who are not using PPAS. We're not comparing Comair to Delta, and I never wrote that cost index flying isn't the most efficient way to complete a flight.
What I wrote is when management criticizes my pay with one side of their mouth, then tells me I'm not allowed to be as productive as a Freedom, Chautaqua, ASA, SkyWest, or...for Christ's sake...Big Sky pilot (yes they were a Delta Connection carrier for a period of time), with the other side of their mouth, they lose credibility.
Anyone who was a pilot at Comair when PPAS was introduced...and for years afterward, knows Comair was the only regional in the Delta network using PPAS. We've all heard this conversation time and again:
ATC: Comair xxxx, say speed?
Comair xxxx: mach .64
ATC: Freedom xxxx, say speed?
Freedom xxxx: mach .77
ATC: Candler/Acey xxx, say speed?
Candler/Acey xxx: mach .78
The point of my using the PPAS example is not to discredit the benefit it may or may not provide. The point is employees who are handcuffed to their desk are not going to get work done on the other side of their office.
Throw in a manager who stands in the corner of the office and berates the employee because their paid too much relative to the guy in the office next door who management hasn't handcuffed to his desk, and you have a reasonably accurate metaphor for what has been going on at Comair for some time.
Certainly there is an "experience premium" associated with Comair. That entire organization should be proud of the level of experience they have/had, vs. ashamed of it. I know I'd rather have a crew with 40 years of combined experience operating the aircraft I'm deadheading on, than a crew with three years total experience.
I am aware the G.O. was built a number of years ago. I don't "adore" any of Comair's leaders, but for the fact that prior to Delta turning the Comair President's job into nothing more than that of a secretary who answers the telephone when it rings from Atlanta, the leadership at Comair had some degree of control over the company's destiny.
It's strange to me that you would write this: "Long story short - if you think the strike had no impact on Comair, rather Comair failed because of the big GO and PPAS, you are living in a dream world." because I never wrote that the strike had no impact on Comair. Can you find where I wrote that?
The purpose of my original post on this subject was to suggest that what Comair has operated through during the last decade is perhaps a little more complex than the black & white, 15-yr. old, Beavis & Butthead world, and those who proclaim the responsibility for Comair's problems lie exclusively with the strike might do well to look a little deeper beyond one single event over the last decade.
I do live in a dream world. Comair's future, Delta's future, and the aviation industry's future, as a whole is, to my family's financial security and well being...what's the word I'm looking for?
Irrelevant.
That doesn't mean I want any of the above entities to fail.
03-04-2011 | 03:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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From: NOYDB
Well I have been offered a seat in one of the life boats! I gave my two weeks notice today. It's been fun, stressful, and a pain. Comair is not what is used to be and I don't want to see it's demise from the inside. For those that are left, keep your chin up!
03-04-2011 | 06:49 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 51
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From: CPT
Congrats Bubba. You have always been a great insight into the "inner workings" of Comair. You will be missed and good luck with your future position ....
mcdozer a.k.a. UH-1h "Bubba"
mcdozer a.k.a. UH-1h "Bubba"
Last edited by mcdozer; 03-04-2011 at 10:46 AM.
03-04-2011 | 08:08 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 438
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Thanks Boomer. Some assets are underperforming due to the overall economy. Some assets are doing exceptionally well. Overall, the hard work and sacrifices we've made over the last decade (or longer) has paid off. I am hopeful everyone living the "Comair experience" is finding success in insulating themselves against decisions made in Atlanta.
I'd prefer to spend my time in the nursing home arguing about who/what/where/when/why Comair succeeded, but since none of us has any material control over Comair's destiny, and Atlanta isn't interested in giving Comair the tools to succeed, I suspect my preference is irrelevant. 
I'm pretty certain it's not, but it is interesting to see that someone else seems to share parts of my perspective.
Congratulations Bubba! I've appreciated your contributions to this thread during your time here, and I'm happy you have found an opportunity to move forward. Best wishes!
I'm pretty certain it's not, but it is interesting to see that someone else seems to share parts of my perspective.
Congratulations Bubba! I've appreciated your contributions to this thread during your time here, and I'm happy you have found an opportunity to move forward. Best wishes!
03-04-2011 | 11:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,053
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From: Economy Minus
I understand you're trying to make a point, but there is no need to assume I need to read something multiple times in order to understand it. I am reasonably good at communicating within the English language.
I agree with you 100% that there should be no career regional airlines. There should be a job available at every legacy airline for every regional airline pilot who wants one. By the way, that job should become available before that regional pilot turns 40, so the risk of being furloughed after leaving the top 25% of their regional's seniority list is adequately offset by their future earnings potential. - Hint...there's a little sarcasm there.
When that day arrives, there will be no need for reasonable pay and benefits at the regional level.
There are any number of reasons a pilot may decide to stay at a regional vs. moving on, and judging another pilot's decision with one's own personal myopic perspective is not going to produce the highest quality opinion.
At no point in my post did I write that PPAS doesn't save money overall. Perhaps you might want to revisit what you quoted to verify that. PPAS may or may not save costs overall, that is above our pay grade as pilots to know.
What PPAS does though, is make crewmembers less productive (and therefore more expensive) relative to crewmembers at other airlines who are not using PPAS. We're not comparing Comair to Delta, and I never wrote that cost index flying isn't the most efficient way to complete a flight.
What I wrote is when management criticizes my pay with one side of their mouth, then tells me I'm not allowed to be as productive as a Freedom, Chautaqua, ASA, SkyWest, or...for Christ's sake...Big Sky pilot (yes they were a Delta Connection carrier for a period of time), with the other side of their mouth, they lose credibility.
Anyone who was a pilot at Comair when PPAS was introduced...and for years afterward, knows Comair was the only regional in the Delta network using PPAS. We've all heard this conversation time and again:
ATC: Comair xxxx, say speed?
Comair xxxx: mach .64
ATC: Freedom xxxx, say speed?
Freedom xxxx: mach .77
ATC: Candler/Acey xxx, say speed?
Candler/Acey xxx: mach .78
The point of my using the PPAS example is not to discredit the benefit it may or may not provide. The point is employees who are handcuffed to their desk are not going to get work done on the other side of their office.
Throw in a manager who stands in the corner of the office and berates the employee because their paid too much relative to the guy in the office next door who management hasn't handcuffed to his desk, and you have a reasonably accurate metaphor for what has been going on at Comair for some time.
Certainly there is an "experience premium" associated with Comair. That entire organization should be proud of the level of experience they have/had, vs. ashamed of it. I know I'd rather have a crew with 40 years of combined experience operating the aircraft I'm deadheading on, than a crew with three years total experience.
I am aware the G.O. was built a number of years ago. I don't "adore" any of Comair's leaders, but for the fact that prior to Delta turning the Comair President's job into nothing more than that of a secretary who answers the telephone when it rings from Atlanta, the leadership at Comair had some degree of control over the company's destiny.
It's strange to me that you would write this: "Long story short - if you think the strike had no impact on Comair, rather Comair failed because of the big GO and PPAS, you are living in a dream world." because I never wrote that the strike had no impact on Comair. Can you find where I wrote that?
The purpose of my original post on this subject was to suggest that what Comair has operated through during the last decade is perhaps a little more complex than the black & white, 15-yr. old, Beavis & Butthead world, and those who proclaim the responsibility for Comair's problems lie exclusively with the strike might do well to look a little deeper beyond one single event over the last decade.
I do live in a dream world. Comair's future, Delta's future, and the aviation industry's future, as a whole is, to my family's financial security and well being...what's the word I'm looking for?
Irrelevant.
That doesn't mean I want any of the above entities to fail.
I agree with you 100% that there should be no career regional airlines. There should be a job available at every legacy airline for every regional airline pilot who wants one. By the way, that job should become available before that regional pilot turns 40, so the risk of being furloughed after leaving the top 25% of their regional's seniority list is adequately offset by their future earnings potential. - Hint...there's a little sarcasm there.
When that day arrives, there will be no need for reasonable pay and benefits at the regional level.
There are any number of reasons a pilot may decide to stay at a regional vs. moving on, and judging another pilot's decision with one's own personal myopic perspective is not going to produce the highest quality opinion.
At no point in my post did I write that PPAS doesn't save money overall. Perhaps you might want to revisit what you quoted to verify that. PPAS may or may not save costs overall, that is above our pay grade as pilots to know.
What PPAS does though, is make crewmembers less productive (and therefore more expensive) relative to crewmembers at other airlines who are not using PPAS. We're not comparing Comair to Delta, and I never wrote that cost index flying isn't the most efficient way to complete a flight.
What I wrote is when management criticizes my pay with one side of their mouth, then tells me I'm not allowed to be as productive as a Freedom, Chautaqua, ASA, SkyWest, or...for Christ's sake...Big Sky pilot (yes they were a Delta Connection carrier for a period of time), with the other side of their mouth, they lose credibility.
Anyone who was a pilot at Comair when PPAS was introduced...and for years afterward, knows Comair was the only regional in the Delta network using PPAS. We've all heard this conversation time and again:
ATC: Comair xxxx, say speed?
Comair xxxx: mach .64
ATC: Freedom xxxx, say speed?
Freedom xxxx: mach .77
ATC: Candler/Acey xxx, say speed?
Candler/Acey xxx: mach .78
The point of my using the PPAS example is not to discredit the benefit it may or may not provide. The point is employees who are handcuffed to their desk are not going to get work done on the other side of their office.
Throw in a manager who stands in the corner of the office and berates the employee because their paid too much relative to the guy in the office next door who management hasn't handcuffed to his desk, and you have a reasonably accurate metaphor for what has been going on at Comair for some time.
Certainly there is an "experience premium" associated with Comair. That entire organization should be proud of the level of experience they have/had, vs. ashamed of it. I know I'd rather have a crew with 40 years of combined experience operating the aircraft I'm deadheading on, than a crew with three years total experience.
I am aware the G.O. was built a number of years ago. I don't "adore" any of Comair's leaders, but for the fact that prior to Delta turning the Comair President's job into nothing more than that of a secretary who answers the telephone when it rings from Atlanta, the leadership at Comair had some degree of control over the company's destiny.
It's strange to me that you would write this: "Long story short - if you think the strike had no impact on Comair, rather Comair failed because of the big GO and PPAS, you are living in a dream world." because I never wrote that the strike had no impact on Comair. Can you find where I wrote that?
The purpose of my original post on this subject was to suggest that what Comair has operated through during the last decade is perhaps a little more complex than the black & white, 15-yr. old, Beavis & Butthead world, and those who proclaim the responsibility for Comair's problems lie exclusively with the strike might do well to look a little deeper beyond one single event over the last decade.
I do live in a dream world. Comair's future, Delta's future, and the aviation industry's future, as a whole is, to my family's financial security and well being...what's the word I'm looking for?
Irrelevant.
That doesn't mean I want any of the above entities to fail.
Ultimately, your argument on PPAS and crew costs fails because Delta compares the costs based on a block hour, not flight segment. Yes, those other carriers fly it faster, but the metric that is used to compare carrier costs is cost per block hour. They don't look at segments, flight times, city pairs, anything like that. PPAS has no impact on what the cost per hour for the crew is to operate the aircraft. It does increase the total number of block hours you will fly as your schedule, but because it would be impossible to compare total block hours between carriers (we don't all fly the same segments in the same weather) the comparison that is made is cost per block hour.
You are correct that I mistated your position and I apologize. Let me try again - I interpret your position to be that Comair failed because of poor managment and high costs/inefficiency (your example of inefficiency was PPAS) rather than because of the strike.
The strike occured during the best (worst) possible time - air travel had been booming, fares were high, every contract was better than the last. Comair struck, hurt Delta for 89 days, then came back with an injury leading contract. The flight attendants shortly follow suit, and sign another industry leading contract. And then right after that, 9/11. Air travel disapears, and it turns out Comair signed the last of the big regional (relatively speaking) contracts - from then on, the contracts would be concessionary, as airlines tried to stay alive, went into bankruptcy, etc.
That industry leading contract, coupled with the fact that Delta looked around and said "not doing that again - get us some more regionals in here" clearly caused the demise of Comair, the most expensive carrier. To blame it on bad Comair management (management that has no real athority to make schedules, pick destinations, etc.) misses the point, in my opinion.
03-04-2011 | 12:02 PM
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03-04-2011 | 12:11 PM
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From: NOYDB
03-04-2011 | 12:11 PM
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From: blueJet
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