VLJ SIC question
12-26-2007, 11:58 AM
#11
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
As has been noted, the CJ family is certified for single-pilot operations, but the type certificate calls for a "minimum crew of one"...doesn't mean there ONLY has to be one. In fact, two 525s-rated pilots may crew a CJ with one logging PIC and the other logging SIC and that would be 100% legal because even though the minimum crew MAY be one per the type certificate it doesn't mean you HAVE to operate with just one.
My company has a CJ2+ on order so I was VERY confused by all this to until it was explained to me by a very experienced CJ mentor pilot.
That said, if you log SIC in any aircraft you'd better have a 61.55 endorsement in your logbook to accompany those entries.
My company has a CJ2+ on order so I was VERY confused by all this to until it was explained to me by a very experienced CJ mentor pilot.
That said, if you log SIC in any aircraft you'd better have a 61.55 endorsement in your logbook to accompany those entries.
12-26-2007, 03:39 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: wing-walker
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
As has been noted, the CJ family is certified for single-pilot operations, but the type certificate calls for a "minimum crew of one"...doesn't mean there ONLY has to be one. In fact, two 525s-rated pilots may crew a CJ with one logging PIC and the other logging SIC and that would be 100% legal because even though the minimum crew MAY be one per the type certificate it doesn't mean you HAVE to operate with just one.
My company has a CJ2+ on order so I was VERY confused by all this to until it was explained to me by a very experienced CJ mentor pilot.
That said, if you log SIC in any aircraft you'd better have a 61.55 endorsement in your logbook to accompany those entries.
My company has a CJ2+ on order so I was VERY confused by all this to until it was explained to me by a very experienced CJ mentor pilot.
That said, if you log SIC in any aircraft you'd better have a 61.55 endorsement in your logbook to accompany those entries.
12-26-2007, 03:47 PM
#13
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Originally Posted by BoilerWings
So in order to log SIC in the CJ2, you must get at least an SIC type rating??
Of course, like any good FAR, there are a few different shades of gray...
Originally Posted by 14 CFR 61.55
Sec. 61.55 - Second-in-command qualifications.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --
(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:
(1) Designated and qualified as pilot in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(2) Designated as the second in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or
(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --
(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:
(1) Designated and qualified as pilot in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(2) Designated as the second in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or
(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.
12-26-2007, 04:47 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Satan's Camaro
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Doesn't have to be an SIC type rating...but you must have either an SIC type or a 61.55 endorsement to log SIC in any two-crew aircraft.
Of course, like any good FAR, there are a few different shades of gray...
Of course, like any good FAR, there are a few different shades of gray...
12-27-2007, 05:25 AM
#18
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by BoilerWings
FAR61.51 - (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
61.55 is too big to post, so here's the link: 61.55
As I read it, to log SIC part 91, the A/C must require an two pilots. If your CJ2 capt has the single pilot type rating, then you're not required and thus cannot log SIC time. If he does not have the single pilot type, then you ARE required and must meet the above requirements (SIC type or AMEL/Inst). However, if you're NOT required, and the PIC has an MEI, then you can log dual received. (I think you can log dual received even if he doesn't have an MEI as long as he doesn't exercise MEI privileges such as single engine training). Your Capt should know his limitations as a CFI and what he can legally log as dual given.
As far as I know, the CJ2 is a single pilot airplane, but the PIC must have a Single-pilot type rating. I'm pretty sure the Eclipse is the same way.
Hope this helps.
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
61.55 is too big to post, so here's the link: 61.55
As I read it, to log SIC part 91, the A/C must require an two pilots. If your CJ2 capt has the single pilot type rating, then you're not required and thus cannot log SIC time. If he does not have the single pilot type, then you ARE required and must meet the above requirements (SIC type or AMEL/Inst). However, if you're NOT required, and the PIC has an MEI, then you can log dual received. (I think you can log dual received even if he doesn't have an MEI as long as he doesn't exercise MEI privileges such as single engine training). Your Capt should know his limitations as a CFI and what he can legally log as dual given.
As far as I know, the CJ2 is a single pilot airplane, but the PIC must have a Single-pilot type rating. I'm pretty sure the Eclipse is the same way.
Hope this helps.
The interpretation here is that the PIC can always chose to conduct two pilot operations if he so desires...even though he may be rated for single pilot. Obviously you need to get his concurrence before you log it
This is not a new concept, some citations have had the single-pilot option for decades.
If you are flying right seat in a jet in which you have low time, log it as SIC. This is perfectly valid ME and turbine time, but like somebody already said be sure you can discuss technical details of the most recent airplane you have been flying. It's probably not worth it for one or two hours, but if you can get multiple flights it will look good on your resume.
Do not try to log XC country legs as Safety Pilot or MEI/Dual-Given in a jet in which you have very low time...this would obviously be BS. Turbine SIC is good enough for the regionals.
Last edited by rickair7777; 12-27-2007 at 05:33 AM.
12-27-2007, 07:34 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: SAAB
Posts: 300
Be carefull with that "SIC" time. Most ailrines regard that as a waste of time. It's one thing if the operator has a training program and trains you. Thus you should have the appropriate knowledge. If it's a fly by night operation that only needed a second pilot to "fill a requirement" with the FAA I'd study up that aircraft before you interview. Did you actually take off & land? Or were you a glorified cruise pilot. I've worked with guys who have gone this route, I'd much rather fly with a guy who was a CFII. Core instrument/systems knowledge is a must in this industry. Granted some are good but the majority didn't gain any knowledge/experience that was of value to the Airlines needs..... except handling the radio :-D
12-27-2007, 07:57 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: E170 FO
Posts: 686
Originally Posted by plasticpi
There is no required type rating OR endorsement in 61.55 to just act as SIC during domestic operations, you only need an endorsement to get the SIC type rating that's required if you want to fly outside of US airspace.
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