90 Seat Regional Jets
07-17-2006, 08:27 AM
#31
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 330 B
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by Linebacker35
I think he was refering to AirCanada operating their own RJ's. Mainline aircanada operated the RJ's starting in 1995 and still operate some themselves today. AC deciding to operate the RJ's themselves instead of givin them to their regional turned AC around. AC went from near bankruptcy and possible layoffs to hiring like 500 pilots right away followed by major expansion all caused by deciding to fly RJ's themselves.
I think Delta, NWA, United, American, continental should all start operating RJ's themselves.
I think Delta, NWA, United, American, continental should all start operating RJ's themselves.
07-17-2006, 09:30 AM
#32
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Originally Posted by Tinpusher007
My point that I think only Linebacker35 seems to get is that if the mainline guys simply flew these smaller aircraft themselves like Air Canada did initially with CRJ's and now with E175-190's that there would be no need for such language, no whip-sawing, no farming out to the lowest bidder...sh!t it could possibly keep people like J.O. outta this business.
And even then, when the industry turns down AGAIN, they will lose it in concessions. It's a lost cause.
Personally, I think the government should've gotten involved a long time ago. If you call United, and purchase a ticket from say DEN-[insert small town], you aren't flying on United at all. Chances are it's mesa or skywest.
If you do the same for dominos, do you expect your pizza to come from Sal's Pizzeria down the street? Nope.
07-17-2006, 10:47 AM
#33
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by fosters
We all get it, but the past is the past. You can't change it. For the majors to start flying the RJ's again, profits would have to be in the billions for the pilots to have the leverage to scope that flying. Not only that, but the majors would have to purchase the feeders. Look what happened to AWAC in the 90's to see how well that went down.
And even then, when the industry turns down AGAIN, they will lose it in concessions. It's a lost cause.
Personally, I think the government should've gotten involved a long time ago. If you call United, and purchase a ticket from say DEN-[insert small town], you aren't flying on United at all. Chances are it's mesa or skywest.
If you do the same for dominos, do you expect your pizza to come from Sal's Pizzeria down the street? Nope.
And even then, when the industry turns down AGAIN, they will lose it in concessions. It's a lost cause.
Personally, I think the government should've gotten involved a long time ago. If you call United, and purchase a ticket from say DEN-[insert small town], you aren't flying on United at all. Chances are it's mesa or skywest.
If you do the same for dominos, do you expect your pizza to come from Sal's Pizzeria down the street? Nope.
The government will NOT, even in the best of times, intervene in this industry strictly for the sake of pilot compensation. The government represents the best interest of the people as a whole, which in this case is measured by ticket prices...the lower the better! Most of the news media ( and passengers) think the recent rise in fares is a catastrophe (for them).
Pilots are not going to get what they want, need, or deserve via the graciousness of management, politicians, or the traveling public. Anything we get, it's going to be because we approach the problem in a strategic, unemotional fashion, set up the playing field to our advantage, then strike without mercy at the time most favorable to us, and TAKE WHATEVER WE CAN GET AWAY WITH! That is the nature of business, and we are in business for ourselves. Obviously part of the strategy needs to be to avoid killing the goose that lays the golden eggs! Also, CAREFULLY CALCULATED public displays of emotion can be effective in persuading stockholders and directors during negotiations.
As a professional 121 pilot, I do have some duties to the traveling public, which I fulfill regardless of the state of my compensation:
1) I come to work well rested (depending on schedule) and sober.
2) I do my job in a very thorough manner, and double and triple check some things that I might not worry about in my own cessna.
3) I will divert or cancel if in doubt, even though the company (and the pax) will be ****ed off about it.
My duties to the public DO NOT extend to the point of working for a single nickel less than I can squeeze out of the company...I am a dedicated professional, not a charity! Look at doctors, architects, and civil engineers...they are pretty meticulous about their work, but they don't come cheap.
07-17-2006, 11:42 AM
#34
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Originally Posted by rickair7777
There is nothing inherently interesting to the government in the outsourcing of regional flying. It is not particularly dangerous, decietful, or unethical. Everything is disclosed, as long as you read your ticket.
Just yesterday some guy gets on "we've had a really bad experience with this airline all day!" he exclaims. "Oh really, which airline?" "US AIR!!" he screams as he's getting onto an Air Wisconsin flight.
Personally, while it is disclosed, the traveling public is inherently 'stupid' when in comes to subcontractors. They only know of the mainline carrier. Yes, some do know about the "regionals" but larger and larger aircraft (think Republics 170 mishap in IAD, remember the news reports? "United airplane blah blah blah...") and jet aircraft are blending mainline and feeder.
07-17-2006, 04:02 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 330 B
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by rickair7777
There is nothing inherently interesting to the government in the outsourcing of regional flying. It is not particularly dangerous, decietful, or unethical. Everything is disclosed, as long as you read your ticket.
The government will NOT, even in the best of times, intervene in this industry strictly for the sake of pilot compensation. The government represents the best interest of the people as a whole, which in this case is measured by ticket prices...the lower the better! Most of the news media ( and passengers) think the recent rise in fares is a catastrophe (for them).
Pilots are not going to get what they want, need, or deserve via the graciousness of management, politicians, or the traveling public. Anything we get, it's going to be because we approach the problem in a strategic, unemotional fashion, set up the playing field to our advantage, then strike without mercy at the time most favorable to us, and TAKE WHATEVER WE CAN GET AWAY WITH! That is the nature of business, and we are in business for ourselves. Obviously part of the strategy needs to be to avoid killing the goose that lays the golden eggs! Also, CAREFULLY CALCULATED public displays of emotion can be effective in persuading stockholders and directors during negotiations.
As a professional 121 pilot, I do have some duties to the traveling public, which I fulfill regardless of the state of my compensation:
1) I come to work well rested (depending on schedule) and sober.
2) I do my job in a very thorough manner, and double and triple check some things that I might not worry about in my own cessna.
3) I will divert or cancel if in doubt, even though the company (and the pax) will be ****ed off about it.
My duties to the public DO NOT extend to the point of working for a single nickel less than I can squeeze out of the company...I am a dedicated professional, not a charity! Look at doctors, architects, and civil engineers...they are pretty meticulous about their work, but they don't come cheap.
The government will NOT, even in the best of times, intervene in this industry strictly for the sake of pilot compensation. The government represents the best interest of the people as a whole, which in this case is measured by ticket prices...the lower the better! Most of the news media ( and passengers) think the recent rise in fares is a catastrophe (for them).
Pilots are not going to get what they want, need, or deserve via the graciousness of management, politicians, or the traveling public. Anything we get, it's going to be because we approach the problem in a strategic, unemotional fashion, set up the playing field to our advantage, then strike without mercy at the time most favorable to us, and TAKE WHATEVER WE CAN GET AWAY WITH! That is the nature of business, and we are in business for ourselves. Obviously part of the strategy needs to be to avoid killing the goose that lays the golden eggs! Also, CAREFULLY CALCULATED public displays of emotion can be effective in persuading stockholders and directors during negotiations.
As a professional 121 pilot, I do have some duties to the traveling public, which I fulfill regardless of the state of my compensation:
1) I come to work well rested (depending on schedule) and sober.
2) I do my job in a very thorough manner, and double and triple check some things that I might not worry about in my own cessna.
3) I will divert or cancel if in doubt, even though the company (and the pax) will be ****ed off about it.
My duties to the public DO NOT extend to the point of working for a single nickel less than I can squeeze out of the company...I am a dedicated professional, not a charity! Look at doctors, architects, and civil engineers...they are pretty meticulous about their work, but they don't come cheap.
07-18-2006, 05:01 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Right Seat 744
Posts: 946
If that is your desire, start your own business. Never outside of the airline industry have I heard employees who felt it was their right to run the company. If you are capable of running a business then do it. But when you seek employment at the door of another man, then let that man decide how and where to make the profits.[/QUOTE]
Well, obviously Harvard educated lawyers can't run an airline. Besides raking in huge golden pararchutes, it appears they are great of running airlines into the ground!
Well, obviously Harvard educated lawyers can't run an airline. Besides raking in huge golden pararchutes, it appears they are great of running airlines into the ground!
07-19-2006, 07:34 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Airbus
Posts: 634
the largest breakdown in scope was when america west allowed freedom (owned by mesa air group) to operate the CRJ900. True, it is a profitable airplane but mesa has $21/hour FOs operating it. This is why the company is making money.
the 70 seat barrier hasnt been broken at many companies, but it has for US Airways. Either way, it HAS to stop here. The E190 is a mainline aircraft- and oh by the way Embraer calls is a E-190 not a ERJ-190.
Regional Pilots:
STICK TO YOUR PAYRATES, AND DO NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING LARGER THAN THE CRJ900. If you do, you will be shooting yourself in the foot and slowing advancement for everyone.
IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS, YOU REALLY REALLY NEED TO. Mainline QOL and pay is much better, and regionals don't deserve to fly mainline aircraft. SJS folks need to have patience.
I will strike for anything larger than 90 seats coming on regional property. ALPA NATIONAL NEEDS TO BACK THIS... ACROSS THE BOARD.
Questions?
the 70 seat barrier hasnt been broken at many companies, but it has for US Airways. Either way, it HAS to stop here. The E190 is a mainline aircraft- and oh by the way Embraer calls is a E-190 not a ERJ-190.
Regional Pilots:
STICK TO YOUR PAYRATES, AND DO NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING LARGER THAN THE CRJ900. If you do, you will be shooting yourself in the foot and slowing advancement for everyone.
IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS, YOU REALLY REALLY NEED TO. Mainline QOL and pay is much better, and regionals don't deserve to fly mainline aircraft. SJS folks need to have patience.
I will strike for anything larger than 90 seats coming on regional property. ALPA NATIONAL NEEDS TO BACK THIS... ACROSS THE BOARD.
Questions?
07-20-2006, 08:26 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
A point to consider....Why are the RJ at the regional and not at mainline? I've read all of your post and you are all neglecting the big picture, i.e. you are taking everything from a pilot job/pay perspective. Consider this...... It is not whether or not the mainline guy would fly it for x and the rj still be profitable. Rather, it is the total operation. A CRJ can make money at the regional and not make money at a major. Why you ask?
ASA pays a flight attendant $18.00/hr Delta $53.00-ASA mechanic $20.00 Delta mechanic 59.00
ASA Gate agent $9.00 Delta G/A 28.00 ASA ramper $8.00 Delta Ramper $20.00
Get the picture? Of course I'm guessing on a lot the numbers but you get the idea. In addition a regional pilots work rules allow for greater productivity than a mainline guy, again driving down the cost per block hour.
now an opinion,
the arguement seems to be it would be better to as few aircraft as possible at the regionals and as many as possible at the major pressumably because you believe it would be a better job. My answer to this is simply a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
Until you have ten years at the regionals and have lived through massive change in the industry. The road to a "major airline job" is paved with pilots who didn't make the big show. And you know what? It had nothing to do with who they were or how good a pilot they were. This is a cyclical industry. My crew lounge is full of guys that would have all gotten great jobs had the winds of fortune blown the other way.
Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile (of the picket line) in his shoes.
ASA pays a flight attendant $18.00/hr Delta $53.00-ASA mechanic $20.00 Delta mechanic 59.00
ASA Gate agent $9.00 Delta G/A 28.00 ASA ramper $8.00 Delta Ramper $20.00
Get the picture? Of course I'm guessing on a lot the numbers but you get the idea. In addition a regional pilots work rules allow for greater productivity than a mainline guy, again driving down the cost per block hour.
now an opinion,
the arguement seems to be it would be better to as few aircraft as possible at the regionals and as many as possible at the major pressumably because you believe it would be a better job. My answer to this is simply a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
Until you have ten years at the regionals and have lived through massive change in the industry. The road to a "major airline job" is paved with pilots who didn't make the big show. And you know what? It had nothing to do with who they were or how good a pilot they were. This is a cyclical industry. My crew lounge is full of guys that would have all gotten great jobs had the winds of fortune blown the other way.
Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile (of the picket line) in his shoes.
Last edited by stickwiggler; 07-20-2006 at 08:29 PM.
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