Humm. Can some one explain to me how flying 1000hrs in a 172 going around the pattern with a primary student trains you for an airline job? I see this idea a lot on this forum and quite frankly don't see the value of this type flying other than building the required time. Heck, most of the time logged would not even be considered X-country! I guess I did it the backwards way, I bought a B-35 Bonanza and have flown the stink out of it from coast to coast and north to south. Most CFI's I've encountered haven't flown further than the 2 hour required X-country. I bought a part share in Turbo Travel Air to get my 200 hours of twin time, we flew from FL to AK to CA just to get real life experience. I'm sorry but you guys barking about getting time the "hard" way as a CFI....just doesn't add up to me. Quality of flight time as well as quality of training is more important IMHO than just time.

577nitro-

 

nitro - no worries man, I don't think anybody here would debate you that CFI pattern-time is far better than what you've experienced. The problem is, I'd imagine, is that the route you took may not be available to most folks, which makes the CFI way of life more often than not the way to go.

 

Interestingly, a similar concept is being utilized by Qantas; for over a decade now. Candidates off the street with 0 hours flight experience can go through their cadet pilot program and on successful completion can get hired as 2nd officers.

 

Blast? No. It is hot, dirty, and boring (at 500 feet, all t*ts look the same). But in 1997, it was $9 per hour, 40-50 hours per week (about $1600 per month... when most regionals were paying around $1200).

And freight? Hunched over in the back of a Caravan in 98 degree weather, throwing 3000 pounds of boxes.... sweating so much that when it dries, a black shirt will have zebra stripes from all the salt...

Or instructing? Eight hours of pattern work in Florida during the summer... Eight hours times eight landings per hour equals 64 landings per day.

Yeah, they were all crappy jobs, and yes, if I could have made the jump into the right seat of a Brazillia with 250 hours, I would have. But today when I hear my coworkers say, "You just wait until summer! It sure gets hot in those Saabs!" I just nod and smile.

 

Nitro, from what I've read it has to do with the difference between a 1000 hour guy jumping into an RJ versus a 300 hour guy. The CFI has had responsibility, has had students put them in challenging and / or dangerous situations that they've had to maneuver their way out of, has had to make go / no-go calls. While taking turns in pattern in a 172 may not equate directly to airline flying, it provides aviating experience, leadership experience, and builds confidence and maturity. Your way does as well. The debate centers around folks taking the reigns of a jet hauling 50-76 unwitting souls without gaining any experience beyond gaining their ratings.

 

I believe I mentioned this before, but I can't quite agree, 100%, that instructing a primary student at 250 hours is more responsible than taking second-in-command of an RJ or TProp...

If you're not a stellar Pilot, I can guarantee you that you'll be passing along some very bad habits, as well as not instilling good aviation sense into somebody that knows no better. These habits will follow your unfortunate student throughout his aviation career, possibly getting himself killed in an Arrow one day...

Just something on the other side of the equation to think about, to play the Devil's advocate here. Some may call that irresponsible.

 

Would certainly agree with the statements above. But would throw in that the 1000 hour CFI needs to have some quality time as well. Not sure were or how somebody with 300 hours is going to get or can get, the necessary exposer to flight conditions your going to see on the line. How are they to experience severe weather, multiple frontal zones, mountains, ice, equipment failure (at the most in opportune time) with out really flying. To me, that means real long distance flying. Multi day trips across the country to new airports in high density traffic areas IFR at night. (Many a pucker factor 10 flight in winter gaining this exposer) Conditions you would encounter as FO on the line. Some of the guys I talked to that have gone through the flight schools (Jet U or whatever) get most of their training in the sim. And sims are good, I have 400 hours in an AST300 which was great for practicing CRM and procedure. However, it was woefully inadequate for preparing me on how to pick my way through a midwest stationary front. That I had to learn on my own...and lessons learned on your own are the ones you carry with you the rest of your life.
So what I think you fellows are saying, is that you want these young upstart's to get some "real" flying in first, before jumping into a CRJ?

577nitro-

 

It seems to me that the job description for a First Officer is to serve as apprentice to a captain. The FO is there to learn and build experience while under the eye of the more experienced pilot. The origional intent was not to have two captain qualified and experienced pilots up front.

If the FAA wanted 2000 hour FO's then they would have made the rules to reflect that. They must think that a 250 hour pilot who has passed the training required at that point is sufficient.

As such I can not see how spending years in the pattern doing touch and go's in a Cessna has any real value to an airline career over being an actual airline pilot. If you want to be an airline pilot then become an airline pilot if you want to teach then become an instructor. They are two totally different professions.

SkyHigh

 

JAL, Cathay Pacific, Lufthansa and others have cadet style pilot programs. As a CFI in Anchorage on occasion I would try and check pilots out for rental who flew for those airlines. Most could not fly a small plane at all. One guy Could not even figure out how to land. All of them were a danger to the sky, But in the aircraft they were trained in and in an IFR environment I am sure that they were just fine.

One guy who flew for Lufthansa claimed that he only had 80 hours in a small plane.

SkyHigh

 

Ok so I agree that a guy out of Jet U with 300 hours is a scary concept... that is if your taking JetU to mean 0 to CRJ FO in 6 month programs. As a matter a fact if you go to www.jetuniversity.com and watch the 30 second spot they have posted before you get to their homepage I think it pretty much sums it up.

However, where my opinion will differ from most of yours, I am sure, is that someone who has gone to an Aviation University program such as (in alphabetical order as not to imply one is better than another): Auburn, Embry Riddle, FIT, Purdue, UND, etc. who have proven training programs is a whole different ball game. Most of these guys EARN their certs all the way through their CFII's and some of the schools have a Jet Sim course at the end of their training. Being that the schools are part 141 many of these students actually go through a number more intermediate check rides than a more traditional part 61 environment would, and even though more check rides does not equal a better pilot it would indicate that there is the ability to catch and correct training issues at an earlier stage. One important thing that many forget is that these schools teach full semester courses on Aerodynamics, Advanced Aerodynamics, Turbine Engines, Crew Resource Management, Navigation, Advanced Aviation Weather, Flight Physiology, human factors, etc., subject matters that are only briefly touched on in 121 ground school, but are a huge tool set in aviation. Also most of these guys will instruct at these schools for at least a year or so, and most of them, lately been leaving with somewhere between 400-800 hours to head for the regionals that will take them. My argument would be that these are much better pilots than the JetU Pilots we were referring to earlier and while they do get sim training for the CRJ (or the like) they do get a lot of the experience that someone that goes through part 61 training does and more. Oh, and I almost forgot they get a Bachelors too.

Would they be better pilots if they stayed for a few more years and didn't depart their respective schools for another year or two? Probably, but my point here is just because someone enrolls in a career oriented school doesn't automatically make them a bad pilot. And I would even go to the point to argue that I would rather have a grad from one of these schools with 400-800 hours under their belt sitting in the front of a CRJ i was catching a ride in than someone that came purely from a part 61 environment with 1500 hours.