King, eh ?

Nirvana to me would be an independent union like APA, SWAPA, IPA, USAPA, etc. that would be a union that the brothers and sisters at SkW can live with, and that doesn't contain the threat that SkW will get something jammed down our throats that we don't want, like this lovely sentiment:


Now, how do you merge the lists? No matter what I'd say, your view of what's fair would depend largely on, well... you. Date of hire is a disadvantage to many junior SkW guys (like me) over ASA guys, and I suspect EVERY XJT guy. I'd go for it, though, if if were that simple. It wouldn't be, though.

I will say, however, that even under the current offer, any XJT pilot put on the street should be the first one to get hired at any Inc company. Not "preferred". Hired. Whoever is in any hiring pool would continue to wait until all the former employees are brought back, or at least given the opportunity to turn the job down.

Also, since I am King, of course I would extract a healthy tributum (tax) on every shareholder to be paid into my offshore (tax free) account where my yacht would be waiting with a dozen or so Hawaiin Tropic girls.

Any of you girls need a fresh coat of sun tan lotion ?

 

What I see is a change in the regional market, where a few large regionals provide contracted lift to numerous mainline partners, (to mitigate their exposure,) in the 76 seat and below market on thin margin routes, and the mainline operating 80+ seats and above at the mainline. Don't look for any scope relaxation. The pilot demographic at the legacies is now heavily populated by X-regional pilots, and they will be the last to vote away seats and the first to be willing to operate 90-100 seats at the mainline.

Just my view as a 12 year veteran of the airline game as both a regional and mainline pilot.[/quote]

I would hope that Legacies did regain the 90-100 seat aircraft and those markets. I just remember my brother ( UAL Capt) saying no one wanted to fly those (insert derogatory RJ name here) jets. Those guys started by flying side saddle in the 727 then moved up to the 737 as FOs. But when the RJ was offered as a means to provide increased frequency they balked at the chance. I hope it changes and puts those jobs and aircraft where they belong...mainline.

 

Tony,
I agree there has been some bad blood between the groups. Some tall talkers and bomb throwers should not be the ones doing the negotiating for the majority. I like your "those displaced will be hired first". I think cooler heads can sit down and work a solution that is in everybody's best interest. RAH operates with three certificates and we could learn and improve on that. I personally don't think working out an integrated list would be all that difficult because of the similarities in demographics.

Lets just say you take it as a percentage of seniority. The top 5 % of each group would be blended to ensure the same relative QOL. The move on with each 5% until you are at the bottom of the list. The certificates could remain separate but the upgrades, equipment types, additional flying would parsed out fairly. No one would be disadvantaged and no one would gain unfair advantage. Fences could be put in for a period of time to ensure that nobody got bumped. If SKYW pilots wanted to remain SAPA, fine, but all three would work together for common work rules and pay to avoid playing one group against the other.

Now back to the tropical girls on the yacht.

 

The majors don't want wholly owned regionals...they don't care about mega regionals as long as there are more than one, so they can compete against each other.

I agree with the OP in that bigger is the future of the regional industry...it has been the case in so many other industries.

There's no reason that the SKW/ASA/XJT groups should not be talking. In fact, I'm prett sure ASA/XJT already are

I would think that long term it would be inevitable that multiple pilot groups under a large umbrella would merge lists...there might be a few exceptions (ie gojet).

The SKW situation is unique...

The SKW voted by a large margin to stay out of alpa. A lot of this had to do with alpa itself...I'm convinced we would have voted yes to an in-house union if someone had been able to organize and market such an entity.

SKW presents a strong anti-union position to ALL of it's employees, not just pilots. They have more of an incentive than just the pilots to stick to their guns on that. For this reason I think it unlikely, although not impossible, that JA would make a deal which would force-integrate the SKW group.

There is no legal provision, and likely no practical means, of merging alpa and non-union groups, while keeping SKW non-union. I mentioned before that it might be possible to develop a "virtual combined list" based on the SKW list and the ASA/XJT list. The seperate lists would be used for internal moves (upgrade/transfer within same company), while the virtual list would be used for transitions between companies.

But there's a problem...SKW Inc might not want a virtual list, and the SKW group can't do it without management's OK.

Also, the virtual list does not legally bind the whole group to collective bargaining...there is still some possibility of whipsaw.



Long-term I think a combined SKW/XJT will be one list, under alpa. Assuming that a deal goes through which requires a forced integration, this is the fair way to do it...

- I would probably vote for DOH, with fences. Anything else is too complicated and subjective. The fences will preserve people's original upgrade expectations.

- Any XJT reductions (ie branded) happen pre-integration. XJT furloughs get stapled below all working pilots.

- Any equipment transfers between cetificates occur AFTER integration, and the people who are currently in those domiciles get first dibs, even if a certificate transfer is required.

- Appropriate fences go up to preserve the original upgrade opportunity within the original domiciles.

- Good News: Congress just passed law which requires fair integration (Alleghany-Mohawk) of any merged airline groups. This was in response to the AA/TWA catastrophe (7 years too late of course). This law applies regardless of union status, so nobody is likely to get scewed.

One more thing: SAPA FOLKS! If you're reading this, I suspect that you have no inclination or interest in merging lists or even discussing it. BETTER GET REAL! If you actually feel that your role in SAPA is to support the pilot group (as opposed to jockeying for Mngt. positions) then you really need to be building relationships and opening dialogue with ASA and XJT reps. It will not be fun to go into a forced-integration after ASA and XJT have aleady worked out THEIR deal

 

This whole quote is completely ignorant. So, please indicate which (any) SAPA folks are in SkW management.

I can tell you there was one, TF. After he screwed that up, he is now a line pilot reported to a CP in SLC.

Also, merging the list is currently not offered by SkW. Nothing for SAPA to discuss (although, I did bring it up).

Finally, I'll bet that NONE of the ALPA folks have attempted to contact SAPA. While I hope they're doing their best to look out for themselves, we will be too.

 

Rick thanks for the reasoned response. I think you are right that this will occur so its best to start working out things now so we are not caught off guard and one group gets short shifted. To be quite I honest I don't think that working out a master seniority list would be that difficult. Each certificate could have a "bid -seniority list" and the company could have a separate Master list for the purpose of upgrades.

Tony had a great idea that those who had been furloughed because of the buyout would receive the first right of return to whichever certificate had vacancies. It would great if those folks would return also with the longevity that they had as far as pay and probationary period was concerned.

 

Tony
If you guys want to chat with the XJT MEC I can PM you a number. I know there are no formal talks on going with the SAPA folks but somebody has to take a first step.

 

Wrong attitude, Tony.

It doesn't matter in the slightest what Inc is offering or discussing, our pilot group needs to open dialogue and establish a relationship or two with XJT. Do you need Jerry's permission to take a trip to IAH or ATL? I certainly hope that we already talk to the ASA guys?!?!?

The other groups may be waiting for YOU to contact them. Somebody has to make the first move.

Of course, we all have to look out for ourselves, but that doesn't mean that a win-win resolution cannot be achieved...we at least have to try.

I know that most SAPA reps are sincere in what they are doing and are not management stooges or wannabes...that was just an attention getter (it worked).

Note: I'm not a hypocritical complainer who is too lazy too participate in the process... I appreciate you doing the job you do, union or not, somebody has to do it. I currently have far too many military reserve obligations to do any pilot-group activities at this time. But I will after I retire.

EDIT: I actually have some time on my hands right now...if none of the SAPA people can swing it, I'LL go to Houston as a SAPA-designated ambassador if that will help.

 

Tony, I remember a week or so ago saying that our Union was so arrogant, that we did not approach SAPA, well I asked this question and I was told that you guys basically "were too good" to deal with ASA's MEC, and you guys offered no assistance or guidance whatsoever, be careful which Union you call arrogant.

 

Tony,

Even if the ASA and XJT reps are sanctimonious buttholes, it is still in our best interest to communicate with them. Working together, those two groups are a significant force. Considering what's at stake, it is not professional or realistic to let personalities drive the agenda. We don't want to cut off our collective nose to spite our face here...