If You Fly For A "Regional" Airline, READ THIS POST!
03-09-2006 | 07:30 AM
#11
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
StearmanDriver
You know that I am a huge fan, and we all know that what you speak of is true. It seems to me however that it is the young new hire that would take most of the brunt of an action as you mentioned. Union or no in the end we all are a union of one and have to act in our own best short term interest. The industry has simply too many hopefuls. You would have to convince student pilots to give up on their dream without even getting a chance at it. How are you going to ask potential new hires to fall on the sword for the betterment of those left behind? What about working pilots? Could you asses a lottery system where every third pilot has to resign in order to strengthen the ranks? From your position it is easy to make those choices. You have satisfied your dream, you have a strong resume to fall back on. Most don't. They have maybe one chance to get their career off the ground. It would be a very hard sell to convince them to rock the boat before ever starting.
Our problem isn't limited to any single company. It is national and becoming world wide in scope. If Expressjet will not do the flying for the price offered then someone else will. If an American company can't meet the cost cuts then perhaps a european company with Chinese crews would. In the end any of us has only one vote. I think we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves where is the industry going, and do I really want to be here in five years? Wishful thinking and strong words are reassuring but an honest look into the future might be sobering for ourselves and the next generation of pilots.
SKyHigh
You know that I am a huge fan, and we all know that what you speak of is true. It seems to me however that it is the young new hire that would take most of the brunt of an action as you mentioned. Union or no in the end we all are a union of one and have to act in our own best short term interest. The industry has simply too many hopefuls. You would have to convince student pilots to give up on their dream without even getting a chance at it. How are you going to ask potential new hires to fall on the sword for the betterment of those left behind? What about working pilots? Could you asses a lottery system where every third pilot has to resign in order to strengthen the ranks? From your position it is easy to make those choices. You have satisfied your dream, you have a strong resume to fall back on. Most don't. They have maybe one chance to get their career off the ground. It would be a very hard sell to convince them to rock the boat before ever starting.
Our problem isn't limited to any single company. It is national and becoming world wide in scope. If Expressjet will not do the flying for the price offered then someone else will. If an American company can't meet the cost cuts then perhaps a european company with Chinese crews would. In the end any of us has only one vote. I think we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves where is the industry going, and do I really want to be here in five years? Wishful thinking and strong words are reassuring but an honest look into the future might be sobering for ourselves and the next generation of pilots.
SKyHigh
1) Majors need to regain scope on RJ's (preferably anything > 50 seats)
2) Regionals need scope to prevent freedoms and GoJets...do YOU have scope? If not, you're headed for an @ss-kicking...
2) Regionals need to strive for a common "baseline" pay and work rules package...that way any competetive dynamics will be driven by operational effeciency, not whipsawing the labor.
3) Unions need to demand that new-hires have ATP mins and written.
If entry level FO's made at least $40K, competion at the entry level would go up, and we'd get smarter, more experienced new-hires who would be less likely to roll over for the company. All new hires would have ATP mins and the PFT kids could go fly microjets for $1.25/h until they have ATP mins.
03-09-2006 | 01:08 PM
#13
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Joined: Dec 2005
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From: 170 babysitter
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Freedom Pilots??? There are no more "freedom pilots". The original "freedom A" guys were removed from their out-of-seniority positions and returned to their original seniority at Mesa (where they are roundly despised on a daily basis).
The current freedom airlines is just an operating certificate for Mesa, same union, list, pay, and rules. I don't think that any of the original "A-listers" are still at freedom. Everybody there is just a regular ALPA guy/girl.
The Mesa pilots are still suffering the consequences of the original freedom issue, since they gave up almost everything on the last contract to kill Freedom A. Hopefully that can be corrected next year.
The current freedom airlines is just an operating certificate for Mesa, same union, list, pay, and rules. I don't think that any of the original "A-listers" are still at freedom. Everybody there is just a regular ALPA guy/girl.
The Mesa pilots are still suffering the consequences of the original freedom issue, since they gave up almost everything on the last contract to kill Freedom A. Hopefully that can be corrected next year.
03-09-2006 | 03:09 PM
#14
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: rj 700/900
The problem is simple, the solution very complicated. Basic econ, to many "qualified" pilots not enough jobs. Our only solution is to up the qualifications to fly for a regional, to slow the flow. You can preach unill you are blue if the face but no recent "grad" will turn down a job to progress his career with 90k of debt. (flight instruct for 15k or fly an erj for 15k), they understand that if they don’t take the job some boner will. So they are just as screwed as we are.
So what can we do?
1.) Require at least 1200 hrs to fly right seat 121. Better yet ATP
(This will be a start, most will have to instruct/fly cargo etc. for several years, thus some will move on to other careers. When they are qualified to fly for a regional they will be less willing to work for 15k.)
2.)Get rid of non FAA examiners.
(The feds give the toughest rides around. (ie. are not compensated for the check ride) Although I know some great examiners, most over the years have lost most of there business because of failing to many students. Instructors get offended when their student fails a ride, and as a result uses a easier examiner. When students fail check rides they get discouraged and are more likely to chose another career path.)
3.)Tighten up the money supply available for flying.
(This is already starting to happen, to many are defaulting on student loans because they cannot make the payments. Making lenders more aggressive with credit scores etc.)
Lets get united and get something done here. Any suggestions?
So what can we do?
1.) Require at least 1200 hrs to fly right seat 121. Better yet ATP
(This will be a start, most will have to instruct/fly cargo etc. for several years, thus some will move on to other careers. When they are qualified to fly for a regional they will be less willing to work for 15k.)
2.)Get rid of non FAA examiners.
(The feds give the toughest rides around. (ie. are not compensated for the check ride) Although I know some great examiners, most over the years have lost most of there business because of failing to many students. Instructors get offended when their student fails a ride, and as a result uses a easier examiner. When students fail check rides they get discouraged and are more likely to chose another career path.)
3.)Tighten up the money supply available for flying.
(This is already starting to happen, to many are defaulting on student loans because they cannot make the payments. Making lenders more aggressive with credit scores etc.)
Lets get united and get something done here. Any suggestions?
03-09-2006 | 04:05 PM
#15
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From: M88B
Here's an idea then. Take the higher minimums to the FAA or your congressman, and don't forget to include a couple of horrific crashes. Details such as the smell of burning flesh or the color of the blood stained parts helps. The governement loves to place restrictions on people. Maybe creating a safety issue out of the deal can get some mins for 121 F.O.'s. Any other idea's
XtremeF150
XtremeF150
03-09-2006 | 04:19 PM
#16
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From: 747 FO
I disagree with most of you about PFT.
1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?
The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.
1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?
The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.
03-09-2006 | 04:29 PM
#17
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,144
Likes: 802
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Originally Posted by samc
I disagree with most of you about PFT.
1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?
The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.
1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?
The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.
PFT's, even if they somehow know better don't have any choice, they have to work for their affiliate carrier or go back to CFI school.
Maybe if we're lucky a few thousand micro-jets will drive up the demand for pilots significantly...and 300 hour wonders will NOT be flying microjets without a babysitter, unless the operators decide to save money by not buying insurance.
I suspect you have not had a lot of professional aviation experience...no amount of training can substitute for actual experience with conflicting pressures from safety, economics, MX, WX, customers, and the employer.
Last edited by rickair7777; 03-09-2006 at 04:34 PM.
03-09-2006 | 06:31 PM
#19
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Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Jungle Jet
Originally Posted by samc
I disagree with most of you about PFT.
1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?
The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.
1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?
The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.
If my airline gets some of the xjet flying so be it. I cant help that. Im going to be on probation if I dont fly they let me go. They hire new people. I try to get an interview with someone else but have to explain why I was let go. Would you really hire me? I understand we have to stand up for each other but refusing flights, unless you get the pilot group to do so, is impractical.
And Im 22 please dont tell me that "mid-twenties" is old.
Last edited by Punkpilot48; 03-09-2006 at 06:36 PM.
03-09-2006 | 06:49 PM
#20
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Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Retired
I'm 24, and a CFI. I still hate PFT. I also know that in the long run, you're really not helping youself because you're not only cheating others, you're cheating yourself. By working for lower wages now, you're just lowering the bar for each and every person above you on the food chain. This is the race to the bottom we all talk about.
Yeah, I paid for my ratings. The flight schools I went to were providing a service to me for the fees I paid. When you do a PFT program like Gulfstream you're not only paying for those ratings, you're then paying to train for a job (you already have your comm rating, so you're paying for additional training) which is something that only is seen in this industry. Add to that the 'wages' you're being paid while playing 121 FO and you're at a net loss for the program. In my mind, that means you're paying to work for them. Unless I'm renting the plane for my leisure, I'm being compensated for my time.
I guess I still fail to understand the point in spending that much money to get a job that won't pay the bills. Maybe I'm weird or something...
Yeah, I paid for my ratings. The flight schools I went to were providing a service to me for the fees I paid. When you do a PFT program like Gulfstream you're not only paying for those ratings, you're then paying to train for a job (you already have your comm rating, so you're paying for additional training) which is something that only is seen in this industry. Add to that the 'wages' you're being paid while playing 121 FO and you're at a net loss for the program. In my mind, that means you're paying to work for them. Unless I'm renting the plane for my leisure, I'm being compensated for my time.
I guess I still fail to understand the point in spending that much money to get a job that won't pay the bills. Maybe I'm weird or something...
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