BURflyer ?
I have some friends selling cell phones making 80k+ a year, others that work just during the summer selling security systems and making 100k+ plus 30k each year as a car allowance. Younger bro making 100k+ construction management, with no college education. Others doing real-estate 100k+! Not sure why you think 60k a year is great money? Cannot afford a house in Cali on that. Don’t sell yourself short. We are worth at least 100k a year! Fo's should start at nothing less than 40k first year. Im not sure where people are getting this mentality (like the flight instructor who only charges for flight time, selling himself short).
Yes flying is becoming easier. But you had to get certified and are required in the right seat, just for that fact you should be making more.
Why do Real-estate agents make bank, because of there licence, not that much to it.

 

Appologies,

It appears I was confusing PFT for programs like ATP, RAA, UND, ERAU- apparently you all are talking about that Gulfstream-type deal. That's a slightly different bag.

As a low timer, I will never claim to be a better pilot than someone with more time (or less) unless I've flown with them. Hours TEND to indicate that 1. a person has survived this long so he must be safe 2. experience, hence knowledge, but some of the worst pilots I've flown with were high-time codgers that got sloppy in their old age. Many of my classmates from college were flying F-16s/A-10s with 300hrs, and they are doing a little more than the average RJ pilot, so 300 hours must not mean as little as people think.

Not that I advocate hiring 300hr pilots at regionals but there are some good ones out there.

 

"Many of my classmates from college were flying F-16s/A-10s with 300hrs, and they are doing a little more than the average RJ pilot, so 300 hours must not mean as little as people think"

No kidding?

And I had such a high opinion of Air Force trained pilots...what WAS I thinking....

 

I still would love one of these "its the PFTers that bring down the industry" and advocate not taking an offered F/O position to really come up with a better argument. You talk of solidarity and turning down a job to "benefit the industry as a whole". So Mr. 34 year old who is now entering the airline industry with 2 kids, a wife, a mortgage and cart payments (and beleive me there are a ton of them in PFT programs because yes, YOU are not the only one who had a dream of flying) is supposed to look an airline HR person in the eye, and in the interest of appeasing some bitter crumudgeons who can't see past their own anger and bitterness to focus on the REAL problem (management), turn down the job they've always wanted because it doesn't pay like a lawyer and see his family suffer because of it.
You say "get out and do something else"....well why don't you tell a West Virginia coal miner who works in an environment that most people would say "get out, do something else!" that and see the reaction. he doesn't because he knows nothing else, wouldn't be happy doing something else and his small protest if he did leave would be largely overshadowed by the next guy willing to step in and he KNOWS this.
STOP blaming the pilots and start getting on the case of the suits who are REALLy the ones driving this industry into the toilet. Oh but I guess the easiest target and the ones who won't put up too much of an argument because they are too scared are the new pilots so lets pick on them because picking a fight with the bigwigs might prove too much of a real fight and we just don't REALLy want to stand out as the trailblazer.

 

Civilian PFT people have one guaranteed quality: a source of cash. Which unfortunately has no corelation to innate flying ability.

Military guys are handpicked and rigorously trained. There is nothing remotely comparable between military training and PFT flight schools. Ask your buddies, they know.

 

Every industry has a cycle. Aviation has been around for a long time now. Most of the bugs have been worked out of the system. Virtually anyone with the ability to learn can pilot a modern airliner. Very little skill or knowledge is really required. The pax cant tell in back if they nearly met their maker or not. They can only judge our performance by the touchdown that we make.

Sadly for us our profession is in high demand. People use to do the job for money now we are scorned as blasphemous for declaring our expectations to actually earn a livable wage doing it. It's not the suits fault either. They are simply trying to do the best for their company during difficult times. We can all pound our fists and declare that we are worth more but the truth is that we are only a business commodity and are only worth what the market demands. What it all boils down to is your own personal decision on how much you will give in order to keep your dream alive. I think it was BURflier who wisely mentioned on another thread that expecting to have a family life and fly was impractical.

These are the kinds of choices that will be expected increasingly as time goes on. In the past year real estate has gone up by almost 50% in some urban areas. That means that as a regional captain who earns 60K you would never be able to afford even a simple home in most cities. If that fact doesn't hit home with most of you then I don't know what else will. The bottom line is that aviation has descended from a truly great profession into something akin to the life of a starving artist. Set your expectations appropriately.

SkyHigh

 

Samc,

Talking about schools like UND, and Riddle under the same breath as RAA and Delta Academy isn't right (unless you're speaking of the now-defunct CAPT program). These are accredited universities that happen to have aviation programs. There are many of them out there. Every state has at least 1 aviation program in their university system. Many of these programs are established and regarded highly in the industry. UND and ER get a lot of flak because they're the ones that are using shiny ads and are also used by manufacturers (when UND needed a new fleet, they choose piper, and so should you). That and for whatever reason many recent grads think they're owed something becuase they went to one of the two. I don't know where this comes from. I know a number of people who graduated from both in the 80s and 90s and don't share this feeling of being owed.

More clarification on why I don't like PFT:

Ok, when you do PFT, you are paying for an interview, you're getting the back door in. You already paid much more than market value for your training, and you did this because it was the easy way. You're more than likely willing to take less pay. Even if you're not, you're going to get a lower offer because you're less experienced. Lowest bidder (because they have lower labor costs) gets the contract, better paying companies get the ax. Everybody looses, they either get furloughed or are making less because their union took a pay cut to stay competative.

Situation 2: Pseudo airlines (GJ and Newco) are started to circumvent scope clauses. They fly bigger jets which not only kills off flying for the major, which kills jobs there, which stalls the guys at the regional from moving up, which causes you to sit in the right seat longer (making less than if you upgraded). Everybody ends up with lower pay in the long run.

The reason I say we need to unite is simple. Pilots are back-stabbing SOBs. For every guy out there that is willing to take a stand for better pay, there are three that are willing to fly the airplane for less, or in some cases, pay to fly it. How does that help you? It may get you 121 experience faster, but it's just another step in the race to the bottom. By lowering yourself to that level you're lowering the pay that others will make to remain competative, and you're lowering the amout of income you'll recieve in the long run because of this, and the slowed career advancement it causes.

And yes, SkyHigh is right about this industry being cyclical. It's amazing that these morons that are running these companies into the ground don't see the writing on the wall. In some cases the same airline has seen similiar situations 3 and 4 times in the last 20 years yet they don't learn their lessons.

Last, The Airforce is a totally different beast all together. For staters, the training is very rigorous and if you don't make it, you're out. Second, they spend every waking second of every day learning these aircraft, working in sims, and studying the applicable systems and theory, and dedicated to nothing but flying that airplane. They may only have 300 hours total, but there are thousands of hours already devoted to simulation and systems before they fly that aircraft. Also, these men and women are defending my right to say what I want on here and keeping my family free. Don't compare them to somebody who just shelled out 30k to fly a jet. I have way too much respect and admiration for our soldiers to even consider them in the same book, let alone the same sentence as PFTers.

 

My question is, if a lot of pilots feel like they're underpaid and that low time pilots are causing problems, etc., why the hell would any of you pilots not strike and take down a major airline or two to prove to the other airlines that pilots are not willing to take concessions anymore because management fuxed up! The truth is, people who are flying for an airline like their pay checks (however big or small), and no one seem to have the balls to say, "screw the pay check, let's take them down!" So as long as pilots don't take a stand and bring down a big one, nothing is going to change for the better.

Just look at what happened at NWA. The pilots took yet another pay cut. You think it's going to be different at Delta? I think not. Drop the retarded kids off at the pool or get off the crapper. All this talk isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It's time people talk about getting pilots to take action, not point fingers at management, low time pilots, each other, etc. Take down a major and you'll see pilot life improve over night.

 

ALCON,


Please don't misunderstand my statement about military pilots. 1. I'm in the military 2. I directly support military pilots every day 3. I used to fly in the AF. Unfortunately, I can no longer continue because I have an eye condition which has caused my cornea to thin by 6 microns in 8 years (despite 20/17 vision, its not waiverable). Hence I'm stuck sending emails and giving briefings. But, I'm a 26 y/o that entered the AF to fly and am willing to give up my 60K a year to fly for a lot less. Do I think I should be on 15K for 5 years? No. Do I think I have to prove myself and work for a salary commensurate with my experience? Yes.

I've now done a job I don't like. I love the people I work with, and I really love the people I work for but I no longer enjoy the work I do. So, I've got three choices
1. Keep doing it for 14 years and retire.
2. Tell my wife she can't go to school on our savings while I instruct for three years.
3. Got to ATP, get my civilian ratings. Seek and obtain a job at a regional, prove myself and earn a remotely respectable living, doing what I like.

Option #3 wins every time I analyze the situation. And I'll stay in the reserves to supplement my income and get a feeling of service everyday. One thing I can recommend to anyone else who wants to serve and earn decent money doing so.

Good luck to us all. It appears we need it.

 

I will spell check next time...