If You Fly For A "Regional" Airline, READ THIS POST!
03-09-2006 | 06:55 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 364
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From: Jungle Jet
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
I'm 24, and a CFI. I still hate PFT. I also know that in the long run, you're really not helping youself because you're not only cheating others, you're cheating yourself. By working for lower wages now, you're just lowering the bar for each and every person above you on the food chain. This is the race to the bottom we all talk about.
Yeah, I paid for my ratings. The flight schools I went to were providing a service to me for the fees I paid. When you do a PFT program like Gulfstream you're not only paying for those ratings, you're then paying to train for a job (you already have your comm rating, so you're paying for additional training) which is something that only is seen in this industry. Add to that the 'wages' you're being paid while playing 121 FO and you're at a net loss for the program. In my mind, that means you're paying to work for them. Unless I'm renting the plane for my leisure, I'm being compensated for my time.
I guess I still fail to understand the point in spending that much money to get a job that won't pay the bills. Maybe I'm weird or something...
Yeah, I paid for my ratings. The flight schools I went to were providing a service to me for the fees I paid. When you do a PFT program like Gulfstream you're not only paying for those ratings, you're then paying to train for a job (you already have your comm rating, so you're paying for additional training) which is something that only is seen in this industry. Add to that the 'wages' you're being paid while playing 121 FO and you're at a net loss for the program. In my mind, that means you're paying to work for them. Unless I'm renting the plane for my leisure, I'm being compensated for my time.
I guess I still fail to understand the point in spending that much money to get a job that won't pay the bills. Maybe I'm weird or something...
But how many people getting ready to start learning how to fly read these forums?
PFT is a topic that comes up in almost every thread. Obviously WE know its a problem. But do they? I would not have. And I would not have known I was wasting money. I would have probably gotten sold into everything. Luckily I did not. Luckily.
03-09-2006 | 07:30 PM
#22
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Pft
PFT,
All is fair in love and war. The same goes for aviation. What is the best way to get there? Any way you can. We all have different advantages and disadvantages in life. If you don't use everything in your power then you are cheating yourself.
Low time pilots. You know there was a time when even the majors hired pilots in the low hundreds. The FAA says that it is safe and legal to fly as an FO with as little as 190 hours. Perhaps we should argue to change the commercial to a 500 hour minimum?
Our current airline system has become pretty fool proof. Why not hire high school kids to fly them? ILS to ILS in a fully automated button monkey machine is not brain surgery. Just don't look at the flight deck as you board and you wouldn't see the teenagers in the front seat.
SkyHigh
All is fair in love and war. The same goes for aviation. What is the best way to get there? Any way you can. We all have different advantages and disadvantages in life. If you don't use everything in your power then you are cheating yourself.
Low time pilots. You know there was a time when even the majors hired pilots in the low hundreds. The FAA says that it is safe and legal to fly as an FO with as little as 190 hours. Perhaps we should argue to change the commercial to a 500 hour minimum?
Our current airline system has become pretty fool proof. Why not hire high school kids to fly them? ILS to ILS in a fully automated button monkey machine is not brain surgery. Just don't look at the flight deck as you board and you wouldn't see the teenagers in the front seat.
SkyHigh
03-09-2006 | 07:44 PM
#23
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Future
In the future what is to stop a company under "free skies" from deadheading foreign pilots into the country to fly regionals in the US for less than half of what the regionals pay now?
I don't know the rules on foreigner wages but we have plenty of American pilots abroad since the pay is better in UAE and they don't pay US taxes. Why couldn't a foreign company get away with paying less? Even minimum wage based on the flight hour could be a lot of money in other countries. What is there under "free skies" to stop that from happening to us?
A Russian crew on 90 day rotations could get a lot of flying done. They could possibly work for a US airline under contract by a foreign company. We could have Chinese mechanics ect... Many airlines already farm out some heavy maintenance to Mexico. Why not bring the Mexicans here?
SkyHigh
I don't know the rules on foreigner wages but we have plenty of American pilots abroad since the pay is better in UAE and they don't pay US taxes. Why couldn't a foreign company get away with paying less? Even minimum wage based on the flight hour could be a lot of money in other countries. What is there under "free skies" to stop that from happening to us?
A Russian crew on 90 day rotations could get a lot of flying done. They could possibly work for a US airline under contract by a foreign company. We could have Chinese mechanics ect... Many airlines already farm out some heavy maintenance to Mexico. Why not bring the Mexicans here?
SkyHigh
03-09-2006 | 08:20 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,934
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From: Retired
Originally Posted by Punkpilot48
But how many people getting ready to start learning how to fly read these forums?
PFT is a topic that comes up in almost every thread. Obviously WE know its a problem. But do they? I would not have. And I would not have known I was wasting money. I would have probably gotten sold into everything. Luckily I did not. Luckily.
PFT is a topic that comes up in almost every thread. Obviously WE know its a problem. But do they? I would not have. And I would not have known I was wasting money. I would have probably gotten sold into everything. Luckily I did not. Luckily.
And before you PFTers start trying to flame me, I'm a low time guy too. I just want to make more as a pilot than a Burger King manager(I don't think that's too much to ask). Paying off big debt on regional FO pay isn't going to get anybody anywhere. Respect your fellow pilots, respect yourselves and realize that it takes a lot of training to do this job, you should be paid accordingly. Greyhound drivers carry fewer people, in equipment that requires little training (a CDL isn't hard to get) and have a much higher fatality rate than any regional pilot and yet they're making more. Think about it.
03-09-2006 | 08:22 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
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From: 170 babysitter
So since it seems the PFTers are the only ones who take the low wage regional F/O jobs, what did 'yall start at when YOU first started at the regionals? From what I have seen, there are 3000TT cats who were CFI's and got ratings at FBO's vying for the same low wage F/O spots as the 300TT PFTers.....so, the argument is confusing.
03-09-2006 | 10:04 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
From: rj 700/900
pilotpip, right on man.
We have to protect industry, if we do nothing, well we can all see the affects of that. Doctors know this, they have taken the steps to limit the supply, thus keeping a relatively high salary.
Im not trying to say that at 300 hours you cant fly an RJ, although with many, it is a serious safety issue. The main point is to slow the supply.
For example look at our beloved mesa. They hire some in the 300 hr range, so if you have a chance to fly turbine 121 time at 300 hours are your going to turn that down to instruct? (you would be stupid not to) So how does this affect the industry? Well now all the other regional have to compete with mesa who has pilots willing to earn 13k a year (Getting jet time Vs 172 time). So to stay competitive they have to ask for concessions from the labor groups, thus driving down our wadges. So who do we blame? The new 300 hr fo trying to advance his career as fast as possible, and has no idea what he is doing. Or management trying to take every advantage to grow the company and increase the stock price so they can cash out? People will generally do what’s in their best interest even if it screws there bro. We can’t expect to talk any one out of taking a job at low time, although they should be educated. If we have no laws in place nothing will change. Lets get the FAA in on this one they will get it done if they believe there are safety issues.
Lets get united my friends.
We have to protect industry, if we do nothing, well we can all see the affects of that. Doctors know this, they have taken the steps to limit the supply, thus keeping a relatively high salary.
Im not trying to say that at 300 hours you cant fly an RJ, although with many, it is a serious safety issue. The main point is to slow the supply.
For example look at our beloved mesa. They hire some in the 300 hr range, so if you have a chance to fly turbine 121 time at 300 hours are your going to turn that down to instruct? (you would be stupid not to) So how does this affect the industry? Well now all the other regional have to compete with mesa who has pilots willing to earn 13k a year (Getting jet time Vs 172 time). So to stay competitive they have to ask for concessions from the labor groups, thus driving down our wadges. So who do we blame? The new 300 hr fo trying to advance his career as fast as possible, and has no idea what he is doing. Or management trying to take every advantage to grow the company and increase the stock price so they can cash out? People will generally do what’s in their best interest even if it screws there bro. We can’t expect to talk any one out of taking a job at low time, although they should be educated. If we have no laws in place nothing will change. Lets get the FAA in on this one they will get it done if they believe there are safety issues.
Lets get united my friends.
03-09-2006 | 10:24 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 185
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my 2 cents,
Aviation industry sucks - Get out now! Did you know that NYPD is hiring and they AVERAGE 75k a in 5th yr and have a pension (that will be there). FDNY make 50k+ with pension. Teachers can get paid up to 100k in NYS with pension (that will be there). Accountants break 100k all the time, Finance is doing great you can get started at about 45k and see 100k+ real fast (few of my friends). Thomas delivery routes pay 70-80k (100 with overtime -one of my friends). Go get a job with the border patrol (they're looking for people). Work for CIA, FBI, Contractor, plumber, electrician, Bla bla bla. Just get your head out of the clouds and take a look at LIFE! You don't have to take this crap. Fly on the side (to actually enjoy flying)-Instruct on the side. You gotta realize that no matter what for every pilot that walks away 100000 suckers are willing to fill his seat - and for less. Its getting nothing but easier and quicker to fly airliners and you dont have to know much or have many skills (anymore) its all automated - no decision making or anything -just show up.
So that means that pilots have less and less power - especially since we are always (naturally) fighting each other. But - you don't have to listen to me - what do I know - im just a guy that decided, for all my hard work, deserves better than 20-30k on and off (furloughs), sleeping in strange places all the time...without a pension. and on top of that what if i loose my medical? - BS
Dont mean to be negative - just trying to do my good deed for the day!
Look for a job that is in demand, A charter manager i knew once said to me -"pilots are a dime a dozen" Never has that statement been more profound to me until I was actually an airline pilot.
Aviation industry sucks - Get out now! Did you know that NYPD is hiring and they AVERAGE 75k a in 5th yr and have a pension (that will be there). FDNY make 50k+ with pension. Teachers can get paid up to 100k in NYS with pension (that will be there). Accountants break 100k all the time, Finance is doing great you can get started at about 45k and see 100k+ real fast (few of my friends). Thomas delivery routes pay 70-80k (100 with overtime -one of my friends). Go get a job with the border patrol (they're looking for people). Work for CIA, FBI, Contractor, plumber, electrician, Bla bla bla. Just get your head out of the clouds and take a look at LIFE! You don't have to take this crap. Fly on the side (to actually enjoy flying)-Instruct on the side. You gotta realize that no matter what for every pilot that walks away 100000 suckers are willing to fill his seat - and for less. Its getting nothing but easier and quicker to fly airliners and you dont have to know much or have many skills (anymore) its all automated - no decision making or anything -just show up.
So that means that pilots have less and less power - especially since we are always (naturally) fighting each other. But - you don't have to listen to me - what do I know - im just a guy that decided, for all my hard work, deserves better than 20-30k on and off (furloughs), sleeping in strange places all the time...without a pension. and on top of that what if i loose my medical? - BS
Dont mean to be negative - just trying to do my good deed for the day!
Look for a job that is in demand, A charter manager i knew once said to me -"pilots are a dime a dozen" Never has that statement been more profound to me until I was actually an airline pilot.
Last edited by flyerNy; 03-09-2006 at 10:31 PM.
03-10-2006 | 12:04 AM
#28
Banned
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by flyerNy
my 2 cents,
Its getting nothing but easier and quicker to fly airliners and you dont have to know much or have many skills (anymore) its all automated - no decision making or anything -just show up.
So that means that pilots have less and less power - especially since we are always (naturally) fighting each other.
Its getting nothing but easier and quicker to fly airliners and you dont have to know much or have many skills (anymore) its all automated - no decision making or anything -just show up.
So that means that pilots have less and less power - especially since we are always (naturally) fighting each other.
Last edited by BURflyer; 03-10-2006 at 12:16 AM.
03-10-2006 | 01:19 AM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by BURflyer
Funny, that kind of sound like a retired legacy captain I knew, he had only about 1000 hours and no other flying experience when he was hired. If anyting, it's gettin harder to become a pilot, at least a major airline pilot. I predict that if things don't get better at the airlines corporate flying will explode, if it hasn't already. What's the deal with you regional pilots? What you want to make 100K a year flying a CRJ? The captains make around 60-70K for the main regionals, that's great considering most are under or around 30 years of age.
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