MESA Ta
11-06-2008 | 11:22 AM
#41
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 44,923
Likes: 698
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
I have seen PBS at two airlines...JO will MORE than take back whatever gains you think you have made contractually.
People say this is a bad time to negotiate due to the MAG's financial situation...WRONG! This is a PEFFECT time to play hardball because JO CANNOT afford a strike now. Push it to the limit, get a good contract, and hope he stays out of BK.
If he goes CH.11 you are going to lose your gains anyway, so may as well grab as much as you can on the off chance that MAG doesn't file.
11-06-2008 | 02:16 PM
#42
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
From: A320/321 First Officer
I would love to have Air Wisky's contract. I think most of the regional industry would love to have Air Wisky's contract. In fact, I would really like to have Southwest's contract, let's draw that up and send it to JO. The fact is we work for Mesa Airlines and we need to be realistic about our expectations. And before someone says it, I know JO loves the fact that I am saying that. You say what if we negotiate for 88 months the next time we negotiate, I say what if we are stuck with this current contract while we negotiate for 88 months.
11-06-2008 | 03:02 PM
#43
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 774
Likes: 0
From: EMB145
I would love to have Air Wisky's contract. I think most of the regional industry would love to have Air Wisky's contract. In fact, I would really like to have Southwest's contract, let's draw that up and send it to JO. The fact is we work for Mesa Airlines and we need to be realistic about our expectations. And before someone says it, I know JO loves the fact that I am saying that. You say what if we negotiate for 88 months the next time we negotiate, I say what if we are stuck with this current contract while we negotiate for 88 months.
You QOL and PAY will probally remain the same or worse
11-06-2008 | 03:31 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
From: NU Guy
No it's not. Air Wiskey's basic rules (Duty rig: 2:1; Trip rig: 4:1, Minimum 12 days off per month, An extra day off if arrive after 02:00 on the last "day" of a trip) would be a big deal (An "enormous deal" would be getting Delta's work rules or pay on par with Southwest's). These things are right off the Air Wiskey page of APC, and are what all airlines should have as a basis.
Mesa already pays historic trip values, which take into account most of the taxi time. Sure, it doesn't cover a blizzard in one of these cities - true. That being said, block or better is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound - it's just not enough.
Appearances in this case are not deceiving. 2.1% in 2010 is actually a paycut, b/c it doesn't even keep up with the Consumer Price Index. The CPI has gone up over 18% since 2003, when the last Mesa TA was signed. You'd have to get 19% raises across the board to just keep up with inflation.
True. But signing a TA for 1 huge improvement for 15% of the pilot group is not a good decision for the pilot group as a whole. Besides, Air Wiskey has 12 days off for all pilots, including reserves. And that's after taking concessions.
While Mesa's current contract is not great, you currently would be taking concessions in the following areas:
- No min guarantee for line-holders
- increased training note
- PBS
- required flight check-in
- Freedom certificate lock
- pairing construction language
- no trip trade or pick-up out of domicile
- Reduction in guarantee pay over the year (910 hours versus 909.96)
- Loss of pay override for VOL pick-up
- inability to decline a standing bid award
How do you arrive @ the conclusion that this TA is an improvement when you're taking so many concessions? What you're doing is joining all the other regionals who've taken concessions recently - why join them? Especially when they had more than you, so, even with concessions, they end up with a better contract then Mesa currently has. One of the few things Mesa has not done is take concessions (they didn't take any in 2003 - with the exception of a change to 'move days' language that was slipped by them) - don't take them now either.
You're not, and it shows in the TA that has been negotiated. Continue with the current agreement for another year until things improve rather than taking concessions. If you take concessions now, you'd have to have a reasonable belief that you'd share in the gains when the company was making $. That didn't happen for Mesa's pilots from 2004-2007 when Mesa accumulated over a quarter of a billion dollars, so it's not logical to think things will be different in the future (the only airline that would even consider such thinking would be Southwest).
What about if you don't finish negotiating until 82 months from now. Ask ASA - it happens.
As a reserve FO, this is probably your first airline gig. I highly suggest you spend as much time in the crew rooms, @ MesaHub.com (the forum for Mesa pilots), and talking to your CA's as possible about this new TA and the ramifications of it. One of the problems with Mesa is that most of the guys who care about these issues are often the same proactive individuals who move on to better carriers. That's not going to happen for a bit (there's nowhere to go, really), so those who are at the regionals now are going to have to make a stand themselves, not rely on riding the coattails of those who have gone before you.
In short, I respectfully disagree with your analysis, 'UNDGUY' - if the TA does come to pass, I hope your analysis is more accurate than mine.
Mesa already pays historic trip values, which take into account most of the taxi time. Sure, it doesn't cover a blizzard in one of these cities - true. That being said, block or better is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound - it's just not enough.
Appearances in this case are not deceiving. 2.1% in 2010 is actually a paycut, b/c it doesn't even keep up with the Consumer Price Index. The CPI has gone up over 18% since 2003, when the last Mesa TA was signed. You'd have to get 19% raises across the board to just keep up with inflation.
True. But signing a TA for 1 huge improvement for 15% of the pilot group is not a good decision for the pilot group as a whole. Besides, Air Wiskey has 12 days off for all pilots, including reserves. And that's after taking concessions.
While Mesa's current contract is not great, you currently would be taking concessions in the following areas:
- No min guarantee for line-holders
- increased training note
- PBS
- required flight check-in
- Freedom certificate lock
- pairing construction language
- no trip trade or pick-up out of domicile
- Reduction in guarantee pay over the year (910 hours versus 909.96)
- Loss of pay override for VOL pick-up
- inability to decline a standing bid award
How do you arrive @ the conclusion that this TA is an improvement when you're taking so many concessions? What you're doing is joining all the other regionals who've taken concessions recently - why join them? Especially when they had more than you, so, even with concessions, they end up with a better contract then Mesa currently has. One of the few things Mesa has not done is take concessions (they didn't take any in 2003 - with the exception of a change to 'move days' language that was slipped by them) - don't take them now either.
You're not, and it shows in the TA that has been negotiated. Continue with the current agreement for another year until things improve rather than taking concessions. If you take concessions now, you'd have to have a reasonable belief that you'd share in the gains when the company was making $. That didn't happen for Mesa's pilots from 2004-2007 when Mesa accumulated over a quarter of a billion dollars, so it's not logical to think things will be different in the future (the only airline that would even consider such thinking would be Southwest).
What about if you don't finish negotiating until 82 months from now. Ask ASA - it happens.
As a reserve FO, this is probably your first airline gig. I highly suggest you spend as much time in the crew rooms, @ MesaHub.com (the forum for Mesa pilots), and talking to your CA's as possible about this new TA and the ramifications of it. One of the problems with Mesa is that most of the guys who care about these issues are often the same proactive individuals who move on to better carriers. That's not going to happen for a bit (there's nowhere to go, really), so those who are at the regionals now are going to have to make a stand themselves, not rely on riding the coattails of those who have gone before you.
In short, I respectfully disagree with your analysis, 'UNDGUY' - if the TA does come to pass, I hope your analysis is more accurate than mine.
11-07-2008 | 08:24 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
From: A Big One
JO doesn't have as much leverage as you think he has. Whatever you accept right now, he's going to cut in half during bankruptcy hearings. Thus, you should go for the big enchilada.
If you don't believe this TA will improve your quality of life and bring it up to or exceed PAR...then DO NOT VOTE FOR IT. Say no and then let the negotiating committee fight for you again..until they get it right.
I haven't read the TA but if it doesn't have concrete language, well defined work rules, block or better, drop/add, substitution pay, cancellation pay, minimum twelve days off, trip rig, duty rig, twelve-month bid, an increase in the bid line guarantee to offset the twelve-month bid year, increased first year pay, ability to deny trips, ability to deny JRA's, a minimum days off/days on provision so that you won't have to work 6 on with one off and then back for another six only to be followed by 2 off, min-scheduled layover time, no-"camping trips" and a reasonable time limit to settle grievences...then say no!
LAMA/XYV
Former CA-CRJ-PHL/DEN/PHX/ORD
If you don't believe this TA will improve your quality of life and bring it up to or exceed PAR...then DO NOT VOTE FOR IT. Say no and then let the negotiating committee fight for you again..until they get it right.
I haven't read the TA but if it doesn't have concrete language, well defined work rules, block or better, drop/add, substitution pay, cancellation pay, minimum twelve days off, trip rig, duty rig, twelve-month bid, an increase in the bid line guarantee to offset the twelve-month bid year, increased first year pay, ability to deny trips, ability to deny JRA's, a minimum days off/days on provision so that you won't have to work 6 on with one off and then back for another six only to be followed by 2 off, min-scheduled layover time, no-"camping trips" and a reasonable time limit to settle grievences...then say no!
LAMA/XYV
Former CA-CRJ-PHL/DEN/PHX/ORD
11-07-2008 | 09:01 AM
#49
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: LR-60
I think we're all forgetting about one minor issue with this TA. Every time something positive is mentioned in this new TA, the following paragraph says, "If either party cancels PBS before 1/1/10, the proceeding paragraph will not apply."
Are you out of your mind? BTW, the company can cancel PBS at any time with 45 days notice. Let's say we sign the TA on 1/1/09, the company can cancel PBS effective 2/15/09 and now we're back to the same contract we have but with 11 days off a month.
Nah, I'll wait another 6 months or a year until I get something better. See ya'll on the picket line.
I better see every single Mesa pilot on that picket line too. I don’t care if it’s your day off and you have to commute to the picket line. Be there!!
Are you out of your mind? BTW, the company can cancel PBS at any time with 45 days notice. Let's say we sign the TA on 1/1/09, the company can cancel PBS effective 2/15/09 and now we're back to the same contract we have but with 11 days off a month.
Nah, I'll wait another 6 months or a year until I get something better. See ya'll on the picket line.
I better see every single Mesa pilot on that picket line too. I don’t care if it’s your day off and you have to commute to the picket line. Be there!!
11-07-2008 | 09:21 AM
#50
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 244
Likes: 1
Who is telling you this? I hear this over and over it makes no sense, IMHO. There is no evidence to show that Mesa has a plan that would prevent a bankruptcy. Mesa has a pilot contract that doesn't expire and that absent a bankruptcy, that same contract will likely be in effect for at least another two years. The RLA process takes some time before unions are allowed self help which is the only thing which could hurt Mesa's cash flow. If threatened with a strike, management would likely file to prevent it.
What is going to determine Mesa's bankruptcy is its cash position, performance and its ability to keep and earn new capacity agreements. The reality is the Mesa has little cash, its performance is near the bottom of the regional carriers and airlines are suing Mesa to cancel their service.
This TA doesn't address pay (for the most part), trip and duty rigs, insurance, and the line guaranty is conditioned up PBS which, after all the commotion, is still totally manipulated at the discretion of the company.
I'm not saying the TA is bad or good, but it doesn't appear to address the concerns which would prevent a bankruptcy. It may or may not happen regardless of the TA. If the bankruptcy happens, PBS will be imposed, premium pay will go away and understaffing will go back to nearly where it was in January.
What is going to determine Mesa's bankruptcy is its cash position, performance and its ability to keep and earn new capacity agreements. The reality is the Mesa has little cash, its performance is near the bottom of the regional carriers and airlines are suing Mesa to cancel their service.
This TA doesn't address pay (for the most part), trip and duty rigs, insurance, and the line guaranty is conditioned up PBS which, after all the commotion, is still totally manipulated at the discretion of the company.
I'm not saying the TA is bad or good, but it doesn't appear to address the concerns which would prevent a bankruptcy. It may or may not happen regardless of the TA. If the bankruptcy happens, PBS will be imposed, premium pay will go away and understaffing will go back to nearly where it was in January.
I agree obviously that a pilot contract give no guarantees that Mesa will stay out of bankruptcy but I would be surprised if Mesa management does not have a plan to try and keep the company from bankruptcy. It might not be a good plan but never the less there are people in Mesa that think they know what they are doing to prevent bankruptcy.
So to be clear what you are saying is:
1) Mesa appears to be on the inevitable path bankruptcy
2) Don't vote on the TA thinking it will keep us from bankruptcy because it probably won't.
3) Mesa's cash flow would be hurt by ALPA going down the RLA route for negotiations making bankruptcy more inevitable
4) If we go into bankruptcy either contract old or new would be thrown out and we'd end up making concessions
Our ALPA lawyer guy said if we were to sign this TA then bankruptcy court would have a very hard time throwing it out due to the fact Mesa signed it so recently when management must have been aware of bankruptcy concerns. Other factors could be that it is arguably still below an industry standard contract.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
MDT06
Regional
46
09-26-2008 06:59 AM
