Jamers

Culgan Family History Facts 1920 - Ancestry.com

here ya go

Nevets

If people cannot quit like you, than why not let them improve their working conditions? What other ways are more effective to handle management? What more effective way to handle management than with the leverage of the RLA behind you rather than a powerless Colgan Pilot Group association? And if such a powerless organization was so effective, why haven't working conditions improved since the last union drive?

Also, if they needed to furlough people to remain viable, I don't think the Colgan management would have been ignorant enough not to do that.

Has it occurred to you that maybe some of the complaining is not due entirely because of pay? Anyways, anyone that got hired at Colgan knew that unionizing was a possibility.

Why do you put people down for not having the ability to quit, as you did, and therefore just wanting to improve their quality of life?

Also, competition from foreign airlines is unlikely. Especially with the results of the last election. Ands cabotage is not a reality because of ALPA rather than despite it as you would like people to think.

And even with the pilots unionized, industry will still dictate what they will be paid. The difference is that Colgan would have to bargain collectively.

If there ever was a time for a union at Colgan, now is the time. The Colgan mangement had the opportunity to show its good faith after the last union drive. There was another way without a union and Colgan management seemed to have squandered that since the last drive.

The union cannot force management to do anything. Employees can only organize to compell the mangament to bargain for a collective agreement of the represented employees. If Colgan cannot make money, they will fail regardless of whether the pilots are unionized or not. And last time I checked, ALPA never asks for every dime their respective managements make.

Five thousand dollars is probably not enough for any time of litigation. But regardless, its not guaranteed you would recover that even if you prevailed. If you do the dance, the union would just make sure that management follows the rules that were negotiated in applying discipline. That is what ALPA does in these cases. If makes sure that you actually did what you are accused of and if you are in fact guilty, that discipline is assesed fairly and per the rules. Both management and employees win in these situations because everyone knows the rules and it takes out any subjectiveness, which coincedentally, reduces the probaility of any litigation.

Anything a company offers you is in return for your services. They don't give you anything. You earn your pay AND benefits. Its been common to refer to them as your total compensation package. If the company didn't find it beneficial to offer health benefits, they would have gotten rid of them yesterday.

What is this other ways you keep talking about?

Despite your problems with Colgan, you would net "ever" vote for a union? Even if you couldn't quit as you've said that the current Colgan pilots can't? So if you had as these problems with Colgan but couldn't quit, what would make you vote for a union?

Why are you stereotyping. I cannot beleive that your statement is not anything but anecdotal at best. Of course there will always be that small percentage of people that are trouble. Just like we have a percentage of criminals in our society. But even criminals have due process. You don't even want to give that to Colgan pilots, due process?

Internal representation? Is this a lawyer paid by Colgan management to represent you in an anlawful termination case? Who is this internal represantion feduciary responsibility to? Who ultimately pays for his services? Even a criminal has the ability for his own defense attorney but yet you don't want to give that oppurtonity to Colgan pilots paid for at ALPA's expense? How is internal representation healthy for business?

Then it seems as though Colgan does have poor management. They had an opportunity to restore faith with their pilots after the last failed union drive. They have proven that Colgan pilots indeed do need a union.

The pay is just ONE aspect of what ALPA does. Sure its important but its not the end all be all of issues. It depends a lot on the particular property. Labor cost may or may not be the number one cost of doing business. ALPA would be able to see if that really is the case at Colgan. The point is that maybe the market does not support higher pay right now or maybe it does. ALPA, as your bargaining agent, would be able to answer this independently to decide for yourself if this was the case. Its like anyone else negotiating their pay at theri desk job when they first get hired. The boss and you negotiate pay and benefits for in exchange for your services. ALPA does the same thing but through a collective voice. Once there is an AGREEMENT, it is settled. In fact, Mesa just agreed that at their particular airline with current market conditions, they agreed to improve some rules and only give modest pay raises for the FOs. ALPA does not look to take every dime or run the airline out of business. That would be counter productive to its members.

Just curious, who do you work for now? Are they unionized?

But with a contract, Colgan cannot just change work rules to suit them. Like I said, its not always about the pay. With rules in play that pilots know that management cannot change on a whim without a consequence, they will be better prepared for the down cycles. Every one knows that the bottom will suffer first if things turn ugly. But I would go as far as to say that most pilots prefer that than management deciding which pilots get furlough, downgraded, or even upgraded regardless of seniority. Its more about treating people fairly and without subjective decisions.

I think that a better point is what happens when you do have a bad day and inadvertently make a mistake. You could lose your job or certificate for making an honest mistake. ALPA is just an insurance policy in case that happens. Its like auto insurance. You buy it but you hope never to have to use it.

And as for as for extensions, if the common thought by some is that you will be fired, maybe it was management's attempt at scare tatics? Otherwise, why would it be common thought by some? And if it was a scare tactic by mangement, then you really do need a union.

Nevets

Who are you to determine what a pilot should get paid? The fact is that management, just like pilots, are paid what they negotiate. Why would you prevent pilots from exerting as much leverage in what they can negotiate? After all, whatever they are able to negotiate is an AGREEMENT between the two parties.

If poor management is letting a union in then with that definition we might find out soon that Colgan has poor mangement. And all the more reason to have a union.

You give your example of Walmart and I'll give a more apples to apples example of SWA. Thee most unionized airline is also thee most successful.

Anyways, with your two scenerios, number one would be good but if number two happens, it wont be because of a union. Like you have said in your scenerio, "since the economy is in the tank and flying is down anyway, that colgan will have to make it up in the form of lay off's and cutbacks." How would a union change market economy conditions? Any lay offs or cutbacks would only be handled per a negotiated agreement rather than by other subjective or unfair means.

ALPAs number one proirity is to represent its members in all aspects of aviation, not just pay. They will not "squeeze the life out of colgan" because that would cause job losses. Its unbelievable to me that on one hand you say that ALPA will cause an airline to go out of business so that their pilots can make $500/hr and at the same time say how incompentent ALPA has been in letting concessions happen.

ALPA is a not for profit organization. Only one pilot is one the ALPA payroll. ALPA wouldn't exist if there were no managements like Colgan's.

ALPA dues are 1.95%. A pilot group like one of Colgan's size will get more than 1.95% worth of dues back from ALPA. That is because the larger pilot groups subsidize the smaller ones. But you can think of the dues money as an insurance policy. One lawyer or something other than a safety related issue like an issue with your medical will more than likely pay for itself. It is not cheaper or practical to come up with thousands of dollars every time you need a professional advocate rather than to pay a modest amount every month for that possibility. You pay it becuase you need it (because you are not a billionaire) but you hope to never have to use it, just like insurance.

There are no agendas to push other than your own. Pilots are ALPA. ALPA members vote for their representatives and can recall them or not re-elect them if they don't like them. The Colgan ALPA MEC will only be as good as its members. All of its members, not just the MEC.

Your effective dues rate may actually be lower. If you itemized your deductions, you can include all union dues. This will lower your effective dues rate by the same rate as your tax bracket. For example, if you are in the 15% tax bracket, your effective dues rate equals 1.6575%. Or if you are in the 25% tax bracket, your effecitve dues rate equals 1.4625%. If you make $45k a year, that equates to about $650 in total dues for that year or about $55 a month.

But even at 1.95% and $45k a year in wages, you would pay about $875 a year or $75 a month. Again, you can think of ALPA as an insurance policy but you are getting a lot more than that. Even if you never "need" ALPA, your dues money is still working for you in the form of protecting the contract, enhancing safety, being an advocate on your behalf on aviation matters in DC, providing other insurance products at competative rates, and many other things as well.

But just the peace of mind that you will have an airline labor specialist lawyer with you in in the event of a hearing, mdeical certification panel, FAA enforcment action, NTSB administrative law judge, or even at a full hearing in from of the NTSB itself, is worth it. A specialty lawyer will probabaly be more expensive anyways. It has nothing to do with the right leadership because, like you said, people will still make mistakes. After all we are all human and we all make mistakes. Sometimes you just need someone in your corner that knows the ins and outs of the case at hand and who has fiduciary responsibility only to you. Sure, some problems you can fix, at a hefty price, without a union. Like you said, you can always hire that top notch laywer you found in the yellow pages. But there are some things that cannot be fixed without a union. Colgan management had that opportuintiy and the showed that they are not willing to do it without a unoin.

If an internal organization is not money driven, then what funds do they use to operate? Is this internal organization operate of of Colgan managements' funds? And if this is the way to go, why didn't it suceed in the past? Colgan management had the golden opportunity and they blew it. Its not that pilots don't care that doesn't make it work. Its that that type of organization doesn't have the power to do anything that management doesn't give them. And there in itself is the real problem.

I don't beleive the pilots will lose money the minute a contract is agreed upon. Even if its with current pay rates. Pilots will start making more money just on forcing management to actually pay the pilots by the rules and not have to fight tooth and nail for pay that is rightfully theirs.

Whats the difference to management what kind of buearocracy ALPA brings? What cost are you talking about? The cost of actually paying their pilots what they are supposed to be paid?

Of course Colgan would much rather have an internal organization. Because they would not be required to bargain or listen or fund them or anything. Im positive they would respond to this much more favorably as well. And that is precisely why pilots should not try that again. It didn't work in the past and it wont work in the future.

I don't think Colgan pilots are looking for miracles. They just want to be paid fairly and have some work rules put donw on paper that everyone agrees to. And as for paying dues, you could always just opt out and just pay the shop fee which is 1.45% and still tax deductable.

Again, again, again, there are much better ways to get what you want, that wont jerk you around, promise the moon, ignore you, and threaten you, but its not through an internal organization.

kycycles

so when do the results come in?

kycycles

Finally someone with an intelligent response to my argument...very well done and well put. while i do understand that the unions will bring some good changes to the pilot situation at colgan, i still believe that overall, it is not a good decision. But hey, majority rules in almost everything that happens in this country, and i would have nothing but respect and professional courtesy towards the unions and its members. Good luck with the vote and be sure to post the results.

Good luck with your vote.

Cruise

Vote ends Dec. 17 @ 1400. We'll know the results shortly thereafter.

FlyJSH

If I don't like it, then quit. But, as you say, I can't quit. I guess I just need to stay here and take it like a man. But what good is having a job when management can issue a new memo cutting my pay, and I have no recourse?

You say there are better ways to handle management. What are they? The Colgan Pilot Group? It was a bunch of well intentioned pilots who wanted to work WITH management to make positive changes. They soon learned management had no intention of making any changes.

Colgan has managed to avoid furloughs. I appreciate that. But the biggest reason Colgan has kept flying is that we fly turboprops. As a whole, turboprop operators have fared much better than the jet counterparts.

Poor management allowed the unions? Extortion? Management had a choice: accept or reject the deal. In other words, if they didn't like it, they should have quit.

When I got hired at Colgan, I knew what the pay and benefits would be. I accepted them. What I DID NOT accept was having my pay cut by losing run ups, repos, and reducing cancellations. Nor did I agree to have my paycheck "accidentally" shorted a few hours every month.

Jobs don't "belong" to anyone. Not even management jobs. If I am hired and accept the offer of renumeration, I expect my employer to honor his end of the bargain. Had Colgan maintained "status quo" from the time I was hired and not shorted my check, I probably would not be pushing for a union.

I could have left, but I signed a CONTRACT. And I FULFILLED MY PART OF MY CONTRACT. It was management who reneged.

Whether UAW, IBT, UMW, ALPA, Iornworkers, Machinists, all union's first priority is to protect the health and welfare of its members. No one at Colgan expects huge pay increases. Most list QOL and work rules above pay. We don't have the right to "every dime". But management should not have the right to take away our benefits with no hope of getting them back.

For companies the size of Colgan, a reasonable (not extravagant) health care plan can pay for itself through lower absenteeism and better employee long term health. But, I don't think health care is a big issue for the pilots now.

((I am happy for you that you can afford your own health care. You are quite lucky. My guess is you are maybe 30: just wait another 10 years or so.))




If "the people that wanted unions were the most incompetent", then a majority of Colgan pilots would not be able to pass a check ride. But all of us did. We are all competent as defined by the FAA and Colgan. And I am not a screw up: no missed trips, no lates, no sick calls (knock wood), no reasons to write a report. Maybe you left because you were afraid of an upcoming PC?


Your pay numbers for the big three are skewed. The hourly pay for US and foreign workers is very close. The difference is Nissan and Toyota have only had factories in the US for 20 years or so, while the big three have been here since the beginning. Nissan and Toyota have no retirees pensions to pay... yet. Twenty years from now, everyone will be paying the $80 per hour you spoke of. Unless of course, those workers who were there for 30 years should just be happy they had a job and forget about a pension.... for the good of the company.

If it is a poor decision for Colgan to "let" the unions in, then Colgan should have done something over the last year to keep the pilots happy. Things like lines that had more flying per day and more days off: something that would have cost the company NOTHING while improving our QOL. Instead, management's only communications with us were to tell us how our jobs just got a little ******ier.

Labor cost may be the highest single expense a company has, but lets do the math for Colgan and its pilots. Lets take a round trip IAH to CLL (maybe the most profitable route in Texas) as an example.
Ticket costs about $128.
Block is about 1.7 hours.
Average load 17 pax (50%)
Assuming a third year CA and second year FO, the pilots cost $117 and change or about $6.90 per passenger (again assuming a 50% load).

Now lets assume a union gets in, the pilots are able to "extort" a 20%, across the board, pay increase. Ticket prices would SKYROCKET $1.38 EACH!

If things are that tight at Colgan, and other airlines (most of whom pay more) can do it cheaper, the we should lose the flying. Ahh the beauty of market capitalism.


(I used 20% based on the difference between our second year Q pay vs. Horizon's)


When we "picked up the slack" and lost our collateral pay (run ups, etc.) did BC, BH, DB, Dot, or any of the others cut their pay a few percent?? No, they did not. So, like you say, it is we, the pilots at the bottom, who suffered.

Yeah, Colgan was hanging on by the skin of its teeth. Every airline had trouble for two quarters: union and non union alike. But now that oil is at a two year low, has management come back and said, "Thanks for taking the hit this summer. We are giving you back what we took."
No.
But they are posting our ontime rates. I could have been 100% if only I could have ****** out an airplane half a dozen times last month.




For foreign airlines to come it, it would take a change of federal law governing cabotage. If that happens, all US airlines would be in trouble since the many foreign airlines are subsidized by their government.

There are many lawers.... the question is could I afford one? If I, a second year FO, pay 1.95% dues, that will work out to something like $500 per year. My guess is a good aviation lawyer earns about $500 per hour. So if I ever need one, he better work fast.



I have had auto insurance since I turned 16. In the last 25 years I have probably paid between $30 and 40 THOUSAND. In that time, I have received maybe $3000 in claims. Sounds like a pretty lousy investment until that one day (heaven forbid) when some guy runs a red light, hits me, and then blames me for the accident.

Similar protection is provided by the unions. They collect dues from all of us, and pay for legal representation if any one of us needs it.

As for unions helping to keep a bad pilot around, the most anti union CA I have flown with is also one of the worst, yet without a union, he is still around. Union or not, there will always be that one guy that should go, but keeps hanging around.



The rest of your posts are pretty much the same. You misquote the dues (3% vs 1.95% ALPA and about 1.5% for IBT). You keep harping on unions destroying a company.... maybe you are right. Just look how badly Southwest and Fedex are doing.

If you were here, I am glad you left. You didn't like it here and rather than try to improve things, you just took your toys and went. That works great when you are a kid, but when you grow up and face the real world, you will find you must fight to just break even.

kycycles

good post...however, i will dis-agree with this. i am not sure about fed-ex but SW did good because the were smart in the way the negotiated their fuel contracts. that negotiation was a gamble that worked out for them, but may turn around and bite the in the butt if prices stay this low for too long. They may find themselves paying more when everyone is paying less.

These are two good examples that show i union can be present in a successful company. however, i could dig up a hundred examples of how unions have played a huge part in the failure of many different industries, including the airlines, over the years.

My opinions are based on years experience. there are always exceptions to the rule. but the statistics do not favor the union cause when it comes to the success of a company.

i do not blame or think less of anyone that will try and better their lives. my angle is long term stability is more important than short term gain. The unions do not have a history of making a company more stable....... in my opinion

Nevets

You mean like the unions at UAL, NWA, DAL, AAL, FDX, UPS, ALA, and SWA? They have all been around for a pretty long time. Some longer than others and a few from the beggining of airlines. Many airlines also have gone by the wayside but I would challenge you to name one that went out of business because of a pilot union. Hell, many people complain that pilots give in too easily in concessions to keep their airlines alive just to see the airline shut down anyways. Stability is not the purpose of the union. Stability is supposed to be one of the goals of management. Sure, there are somtimes economic conditions that management cannot control. And in those cases, its where a good union can help its members deal with furloughs, downgrades, concessions, bankruptcy, etc.

Nevets

XJT P2P Update
December 15, 2008

On Wednesday, Dec. 17, 2008, at 1400 EST, the vote for ALPA representation by pilots at Colgan Air closes and we will learn whether or not they have successfully voted in ALPA. Last year, Colgan’s pilots lost voting in ALPA by four votes. This year, we hope the outcome will be different.

I am asking all of you who will be flying in and out of EWR, IAH or IAD to remind any Colgan pilot you see to please cast their vote and have their voice heard. The campaign has been going well so far, but we could use all the help we can get. Please remind every Colgan pilot you see that we at ExpressJet are excited about the opportunity to work together with the pilots of Colgan Air, not only in the Continental system but within the Air Line Pilot’s Association.