US Airways Express 2nd Year First Officers
12-25-2008 | 03:40 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 853
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Couldn't agree more with that. The lines that are built now are rediculous. 92 hrs credit and so on. Shave 5 or 10 hrs off each one and you could easily bring at least some pilots back. Most of the line holders here don't even want that much flying, from what I gather anyways. Not to mention whats happened to the days off since the lines are now built by peidmont. 8-9 year senority gets you 12 days and thats if you don't bid according to commutibilaty. Schedules here is something thats been at the top of everyones complaint list for some time now. haven't seen a differance yet tho. But thats off the subject
12-25-2008 | 03:49 PM
#22
Furlough line holder
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,845
Likes: 0
From: CRJ2, ATR, CRJ7, E145, 737
Alright, this thread is going down a bad path here really quickly, but I guess as long as it's still open for discussion I'll throw my .02 in. Look I agree that picking up open time when there are pilots out on furlough is a bad gig. But honestly, it's not our fault that our managements choose to furlough guys and then still have open time left to pick up. Frankly if they have open time they furloughed too many people, definitely. But calling the pilots that pick up their phones on their days off bad people is a little uncalled for. If the pilots that don't pick up on their days off don't fly the open time, scheduling is simply going to extend someone that is already flying, and they're going to get the extra flight time and cash. We can't all refuse to fly open time, we'd start getting missed trips and end up getting fired. Don't get me wrong, I can't stand the fact that we have overqualified pilots on the streets right now, but I also don't want to join them voluntarily by getting fired for refusing a trip.
On a second note, why on earth did you bring the general aviation guys into this? You do realize that not everyone that flies a 152 is a private pilot with 50 hours right? You realize that there are people who own planes like that with 10000+ hours of flight time and 4000+PIC in a 747 right? That was a bit harsh and uncalled for. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (hence why it's a PUBLIC forum). It may not be as educated as others' opinions may be, but it's still perfectly alright for it to be acknowledged.
I do agree with you though... naming out pilots on a public forum is grounds for disaster.
On a second note, why on earth did you bring the general aviation guys into this? You do realize that not everyone that flies a 152 is a private pilot with 50 hours right? You realize that there are people who own planes like that with 10000+ hours of flight time and 4000+PIC in a 747 right? That was a bit harsh and uncalled for. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (hence why it's a PUBLIC forum). It may not be as educated as others' opinions may be, but it's still perfectly alright for it to be acknowledged.
I do agree with you though... naming out pilots on a public forum is grounds for disaster.
There is a huge difference between picking up open time and being junior manned. What you've described in bold, is Junior Manning. What the gripe is, is pilots that go out of their way to pick up extra UNSTAFFED flying while there are people on furlough.
You make a point about "the company furloughed too many". Well the company will NEVER recall pilots, if they can get the remaining folks to pick up extra trips.
It disgusts me enough to see a lack of solidarity between pilots of "competing carriers", but the fact that there's a disconnect within the same pilot group is bleeping mind boggling.
12-25-2008 | 03:50 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
From: EFFO (eternally furloughed First Officer)
At a particular US Express carrier, all the FOs on the line, many of which are picking up copious amounts of open time with nearly 100 of their fellow FOs, even some that were in the same class as the open time offenders, on furlough.
I'm just curious, when will you decide that your 2nd year FO pay, a $7/hour PAY INCREASE, to a measly $30ish/hr, which is a crime in itself... when is your 2nd year FO pay rate going to be enough? Enough to make you feel ashamed for picking up open-time while your fellow pilots are on the street, and you fly extra work that could be flown by a furloughed pilot.
Don't fool yourself, even 3-5 furloughed pilots coming back to cover open-time flying is better than none.
Selfish individuals always try to rationalize their negative decisions. The worst part is I guarantee you nobody that has ever been furloughed, who is a decent human being, would ever fly an hour of open time with fellow pilots on the street.
I don't want to hear any stories about starving children, or not being able to make a rent payment. You signed up for this job knowing what it pays, you have to accept the consequences. Stop living beyond your means, and you wouldn't be in a tight spot concerning cash.
So, from a pilot who would never pick up open time with my fellow pilots on street, on this beautiful Christmas day, when will you stop?
I'm just curious, when will you decide that your 2nd year FO pay, a $7/hour PAY INCREASE, to a measly $30ish/hr, which is a crime in itself... when is your 2nd year FO pay rate going to be enough? Enough to make you feel ashamed for picking up open-time while your fellow pilots are on the street, and you fly extra work that could be flown by a furloughed pilot.
Don't fool yourself, even 3-5 furloughed pilots coming back to cover open-time flying is better than none.
Selfish individuals always try to rationalize their negative decisions. The worst part is I guarantee you nobody that has ever been furloughed, who is a decent human being, would ever fly an hour of open time with fellow pilots on the street.
I don't want to hear any stories about starving children, or not being able to make a rent payment. You signed up for this job knowing what it pays, you have to accept the consequences. Stop living beyond your means, and you wouldn't be in a tight spot concerning cash.
So, from a pilot who would never pick up open time with my fellow pilots on street, on this beautiful Christmas day, when will you stop?
- When will you stop picking up open time?
- When will you stop answering your phone on your days off to get junior manned?
- When will you stop being an uneducated fool, and let scheduling abuse you?
- When will you stop bending the contract to help the company out beyond any reasonable exceptions?
- When will you stop trying to rationalize your destructive, negative behaviour, and help the pilot group as a whole?
- When will you stop lieing to yourself, and others when the subject of picking up open time comes up?
There is no way to justify picking up open time! I have bills to pay, i have a family, i have a new baby due in less than a month with no insurance because i am already on furlough. what makes your situation any tougher than mine. So do you still want to pick up open time?DONT DO IT!!!! (with that said it is wrong to name drop in a public forum) Picking up open time during while a furlough is in effect is like slapping your fellow pilot in the face. Let the company live with the bed they made. They can assign reserves, extend pilots already flying or attempt to junior man. Anything with your CBA. If anything the union of they had a pair, would be trying to negotiate a reduction in hours per line to try and get some guys or gals back off the street. If you want to talk the talk about sticking together as a union group, then WALK the freaking WALK and take shared sacrifice to better the whole group.
rant over.
Merry Christmas
rant over.
Merry Christmas
on a personal note i also feel that if you are strictly a GA pilot then no your opinion is not wanted on the matter
Last edited by teamdothis; 12-25-2008 at 03:54 PM. Reason: needed to rant some more!
12-25-2008 | 03:59 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
From: E170/175 CA
Wow, so just say it. You are talking about Republic Airlines. If you work there, then you already know we have our own internal company forums (two, in fact), and that this topic has been exhaustingly debated therein. If the pilots you are trying to reach do not read the aforementioned forums, then they likely don't read this forum either. I hope that talking like a big boy has made you feel better...we all need to vent on occasion...but you really come across as unprofessional by blasting your co-workers in front of the whole audience here. If you have a beef with some particular people, then meet them in the crew room, or invite them to discuss the topic with you via their v-file.
People will always pick up overtime. I disagree with it, and so do the majority of posters here. You are preaching to the converted. Do you realize that not only 2nd year FO's are picking up overtime? Do you realize that 5th year captains are picking up overtime in the FO seat? The problem is not limited to 2nd year pilots. There are a lot of people who feel they need the extra money. Maybe they have a sick family member with high medical bills. Or perhaps they were downgraded and now have a kid. Or maybe they are just greedy and could care less. Your attempt at public humiliation will not change their minds. But it will cause dissent and division among our ranks.
People will always pick up overtime. I disagree with it, and so do the majority of posters here. You are preaching to the converted. Do you realize that not only 2nd year FO's are picking up overtime? Do you realize that 5th year captains are picking up overtime in the FO seat? The problem is not limited to 2nd year pilots. There are a lot of people who feel they need the extra money. Maybe they have a sick family member with high medical bills. Or perhaps they were downgraded and now have a kid. Or maybe they are just greedy and could care less. Your attempt at public humiliation will not change their minds. But it will cause dissent and division among our ranks.
12-25-2008 | 04:05 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
From: EFFO (eternally furloughed First Officer)
Wow, so just say it. You are talking about Republic Airlines. If you work there, then you already know we have our own internal company forums (two, in fact), and that this topic has been exhaustingly debated therein. If the pilots you are trying to reach do not read the aforementioned forums, then they likely don't read this forum either. I hope that talking like a big boy has made you feel better...we all need to vent on occasion...but you really come across as unprofessional by blasting your co-workers in front of the whole audience here. If you have a beef with some particular people, then meet them in the crew room, or invite them to discuss the topic with you via their v-file.
People will always pick up overtime. I disagree with it, and so do the majority of posters here. You are preaching to the converted. Do you realize that not only 2nd year FO's are picking up overtime? Do you realize that 5th year captains are picking up overtime in the FO seat? The problem is not limited to 2nd year pilots. There are a lot of people who feel they need the extra money. Maybe they have a sick family member with high medical bills. Or perhaps they were downgraded and now have a kid. Or maybe they are just greedy and could care less. Your attempt at public humiliation will not change their minds. But it will cause dissent and division among our ranks.
People will always pick up overtime. I disagree with it, and so do the majority of posters here. You are preaching to the converted. Do you realize that not only 2nd year FO's are picking up overtime? Do you realize that 5th year captains are picking up overtime in the FO seat? The problem is not limited to 2nd year pilots. There are a lot of people who feel they need the extra money. Maybe they have a sick family member with high medical bills. Or perhaps they were downgraded and now have a kid. Or maybe they are just greedy and could care less. Your attempt at public humiliation will not change their minds. But it will cause dissent and division among our ranks.
12-25-2008 | 04:20 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 853
Likes: 0
actually I was talking about PSA. But wow you have capts picking up time in the right seat? And I thought we had problems. As far as getting the union involved in this, Its actually possible. We are entering contract negotiations. Most pilots i've spoken with are all in favor of trading SDO pay(time and a half) for duty rigs(open time not jr man) we can't refuse jr man here once they get ya, and they have more ways then just calling your phone. If i'm being extended an extra day I expect overtime pay on top of guarantee. But giving up SDO will solve the temptation of pilots to pick up trips. even after all recalls are made, and more efficient schedules will be created, with an extra few days off at that if we get rigs. Say goodbye to DH to TRI for a 23 hr layover.
12-25-2008 | 04:43 PM
#28
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: CRJ FO
I really think that newarkblows hit the nail on the head: Although picking up open time with people on furlough may be emotionally upsetting, the concern is rationally unfounded.
(emphasis added)
As fullflank says,
"Although I would love to think that if no one picks up open time those guys would get recalled but thats hard to imagine when rsv pilots, including myself are only flying 25 hrs/month. " (emphasis added)
The reality of the situation is that even if everyone stopped picking up open time entirely, no furloughees would be recalled. When reserve pilots are only flying 25 hours a month, the company is not anywhere close to being short on pilots. So what if everyone stopped picking up open time? Reserves would then fly 50-60 hours a month...still well below reserve guarantee. One can not make a rational argument that picking up open time is contributing to pilots being on furlough when all evidence points to a properly staffed airline. Granted, if reserve pilots were flying 75, 80, or more hours per month, one could argue that picking up open time is allowing the company to get by with less pilots, but the argument does not hold water when reserves are flying 25 hours per month.
A previous poster mentioned the company building numerous high credit lines. In regard to high credit lines, I do not fault the company or the union. We were hired to fly airplanes and the company is building lines according to our contract. An airline is not in business to employ as many pilots as possible, so I do not fault anyone (the company or the union) for allowing numerous high value lines from being constructed. The company is simply using us efficiently within the bounds of our contract.
If someone choses to pick up open time on his day off, I could care less. Why? Because it makes no difference to people on furlough whether he does or not. I only reserve the right to change my opinion if the facts change (i.e. if reserves are flying over minimum guarantee...more than 72 hrs a month...the company is approaching an understaffed condition and should recall pilots). Until such time, the company is properly staffed and the picking up of open time is of no consequence to anyone. I realize some my disagree with me, but PLEASE respond with LOGIC and FACTS....not emotional arguments (eg: open timers are stabbing fellow pilots in the back).
Finally, for the record, I personally have not picked up open time since we began furloughing, but simply because I do not want to work on my days off.
As fullflank says,
"Although I would love to think that if no one picks up open time those guys would get recalled but thats hard to imagine when rsv pilots, including myself are only flying 25 hrs/month. " (emphasis added)
The reality of the situation is that even if everyone stopped picking up open time entirely, no furloughees would be recalled. When reserve pilots are only flying 25 hours a month, the company is not anywhere close to being short on pilots. So what if everyone stopped picking up open time? Reserves would then fly 50-60 hours a month...still well below reserve guarantee. One can not make a rational argument that picking up open time is contributing to pilots being on furlough when all evidence points to a properly staffed airline. Granted, if reserve pilots were flying 75, 80, or more hours per month, one could argue that picking up open time is allowing the company to get by with less pilots, but the argument does not hold water when reserves are flying 25 hours per month.
A previous poster mentioned the company building numerous high credit lines. In regard to high credit lines, I do not fault the company or the union. We were hired to fly airplanes and the company is building lines according to our contract. An airline is not in business to employ as many pilots as possible, so I do not fault anyone (the company or the union) for allowing numerous high value lines from being constructed. The company is simply using us efficiently within the bounds of our contract.
If someone choses to pick up open time on his day off, I could care less. Why? Because it makes no difference to people on furlough whether he does or not. I only reserve the right to change my opinion if the facts change (i.e. if reserves are flying over minimum guarantee...more than 72 hrs a month...the company is approaching an understaffed condition and should recall pilots). Until such time, the company is properly staffed and the picking up of open time is of no consequence to anyone. I realize some my disagree with me, but PLEASE respond with LOGIC and FACTS....not emotional arguments (eg: open timers are stabbing fellow pilots in the back).
Finally, for the record, I personally have not picked up open time since we began furloughing, but simply because I do not want to work on my days off.
12-25-2008 | 05:12 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
From: CRJ FO no more
I'm 100% with you INSANO. And although you shouldn't publicly drop names you can PM them.
What's up with pilots not caring for their own? I'm out on the street right now bringing in a whopping $700 a month from unemployment and that doesn't even come close to paying my bills. Do they care? Hell no. They even voted down to have our medical insurance payed for while all of us are on furlough. So they can't part with $10 a month, or however much that would have cost them, then that shows you that they couldn't care less about us.
And what's up with the union?!?!? Are they doing ANYTHING for us??? I'm totally out of the loop as far as the furlough goes. You know it'd be nice to receive a monthly email saying SOMETHING! Are they going to get on these 90hr lines? That's ridiculous! And they also said they were going to work on getting our travel benefits extended. But nooooo.... Haven't heard anything on that either. So guess what i'm sitting here at home alone on christmas, well my gf is with me, but i couldn't go home to see my family. And although my friend offered me a buddy pass it would have ended up costing me $153 of which i DO NOT have. So thanks a lot!
BTW if their on 2nd year pay at $30. Then their getting a $15 extra in pay, not $7. But that's besides the point...
What's up with pilots not caring for their own? I'm out on the street right now bringing in a whopping $700 a month from unemployment and that doesn't even come close to paying my bills. Do they care? Hell no. They even voted down to have our medical insurance payed for while all of us are on furlough. So they can't part with $10 a month, or however much that would have cost them, then that shows you that they couldn't care less about us.
And what's up with the union?!?!? Are they doing ANYTHING for us??? I'm totally out of the loop as far as the furlough goes. You know it'd be nice to receive a monthly email saying SOMETHING! Are they going to get on these 90hr lines? That's ridiculous! And they also said they were going to work on getting our travel benefits extended. But nooooo.... Haven't heard anything on that either. So guess what i'm sitting here at home alone on christmas, well my gf is with me, but i couldn't go home to see my family. And although my friend offered me a buddy pass it would have ended up costing me $153 of which i DO NOT have. So thanks a lot!
BTW if their on 2nd year pay at $30. Then their getting a $15 extra in pay, not $7. But that's besides the point...
12-25-2008 | 05:37 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
From: Any port in the storm
First off, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah to all...
To all those on furlough, I hope you are getting by and finding a way to relax this holiday season. I've never been where you are, and thus, I cannot relate to it. That being said, I understand that times are very challenging right now, and I'm grateful to be where I am.
Moving forward: I want to introduce a slightly different question here.
If we can all concede that picking up open time with other company pilots on the street is, at the very least, bad form, then what is the most appropriate deterrent?
What is the best means to stop this without being destructive and really going overboard? Others have pointed out that it's not a simple black and white issue, as people doing it could also be in financial straits...
So what is appropriate? Pulling people aside? Listing the pilots that do it?
I haven't even made it to training yet, so this is all pretty much academic to me.
Again, Merry Christmas...and I hope things start looking up for everyone.
To all those on furlough, I hope you are getting by and finding a way to relax this holiday season. I've never been where you are, and thus, I cannot relate to it. That being said, I understand that times are very challenging right now, and I'm grateful to be where I am.
Moving forward: I want to introduce a slightly different question here.
If we can all concede that picking up open time with other company pilots on the street is, at the very least, bad form, then what is the most appropriate deterrent?
What is the best means to stop this without being destructive and really going overboard? Others have pointed out that it's not a simple black and white issue, as people doing it could also be in financial straits...
So what is appropriate? Pulling people aside? Listing the pilots that do it?
I haven't even made it to training yet, so this is all pretty much academic to me.
Again, Merry Christmas...and I hope things start looking up for everyone.
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