It isn't that difficult to top regional captain pay either. There just isn't any logic to paying $150,000 in education and training expenses and four to five years in college to get a job that in ten more years pays less than what most apprentice plumbers make.

I have a theory that aviation is mostly comprised of spoiled middle class kids who in a vein attempt of avoiding real work end up compromising themselves. Ask any plumber what he thinks of the above sacrifices and he would turn white with fear and ask "why would anyone do that"? Most people don't care how fun a job is they simply wouldn't do it if the pay wasn't there.



SkyHigh

 

AMEN BROTHER! Don't think anyone could have stated it better!

 

I bow to thee, the king of embellishment.

$150k for training? Where did you train at? Was it in all turbine equipment? More like a baseline of $25k-$30k flying older aircraft to get the basic ratings and CFI's. If you want to spend more, then do it, but the most I could see people reasonably spending to get their ratings would be around $40k flying new equipment, under part 61 (250 hr req for commercial). If you flew in a 141 environment you could spend less or more depending on how much you studied and picked stuff up.

4-5 years of college? Huh? Try 3-4 years, and that's if you even go to college before getting that regional gig. I graduated with a 4-year in <3 years, while working AND flying to get my ratings (private-CFII). I've flown with some really young (24-25 years old) RJ captains who starting flying after highschool and then took online classes once they were hired at regionals - cost for them varied between $6,000-$15,000 for a 4-year.

A serious question - do you know how much teachers, cops, fire fighters, etc. make? Those people certainly don't do their jobs "for the money". If flying for a regional means I can't buy a brand new S-Class I could give a rat's ass - as long as the money enough to sustain myself I am happy. Second year pay is mid-30's at most regionals, not a LOT but not poverty level either.

 

I strongly disagree with all your statements. For starters the average college student in America takes 5 years to complete a four year degree at a state university. Especially if they are working flight training and a part time job into the middle of all that. Tuition plus housing at an average state university is approximately $20,000 per year. Add flight training on top of that and you are at 150K...

I was a firefighter in my 20's. I wish I had stayed. Current starting wages at metropolitan fire department is above 50K in the NW. Overtime can add an additional 10-20K per year and occasionally it is still possible to get hired without any training beyond EMT. Teachers average above 54K in the northwest and lets not forget that they have full medical, retirement, every holiday and the entire summer off.

Times will get tight again in the regionals. You are grabbing at a few rare instances that are not typical and probably will not remain in the future. Ask any ERU or UND graduate what they spent on training and a real education.

SkyHigh

 

Before we all get too far into a frenzy bashing $20/hour RJ FO's, lets review how it got that way...

It didn't start with $100/hr RJ FO's who took a pay cut to $20...it started with entry-level FO's getting $10/hr in a turboprop...

Management bought the 50 seaters, then the 70s and so on...for the most part they are being flown by those same entry-level pilots (OK plus some PFTs) making the same sh*t wages they always have...what's changed is the size and range of the airplane.

The mainline guys had WAY more leverage and opportunity to stop this crap by holding the line on scope.

Older guys ask yourself...when you got hired to fly the 1900 or the metroliner or whatever would you have flown the RJ if offered? For more money the than the prop-job? Be honest...

Also, who controls entry-level regional wages? New hire pilots? Umm, no. Generally those pay scales are negotiated by senior (usually career) regional captains who are perfectly willing to throw the upwardly mobile new hires under the bus...if they cut FO pay by 1$, management will gladly trade that for a $5 raise on the high end of the captain payscale...

Management is taking good advantage of the historic expectation that new hires get paid crappola...and then having them fly mainline-size jets. We pilots need to educate the new folks, encourage them to avoid PFT (which locks you into a crap regional in most cases) and steer clear of the real bottom feeders.

 

How can someone take 5 years to graduate college? They are not applying themselves.

And if I went to a school that cost $20k/year, I would've gotten a degree in a REAL major and used it instead of flying. I doubt many people go spend $80-100k for a 4-year and then start flying. If they do, they know what they are getting into - and have no right to complain; or they are very, very, stupid. Salaries for FO's aren't changing; yes I would like to be paid more but guess what...everyone thinks they should be paid more. Our job is so easy it's not even funny. Show up on time, look at a few things, punch a few buttons, and that's it.

Engineering pays well - I sometimes wish I had gone to school and become a civil engineer. $50+k plus bonus out of school, benefits, etc. That's awesome. I know a few people who did that. They are worse off than me because they have to spend their money in bars and women to take their mind off their miserable jobs.

That's awesome. Here in the mid-atlantic area they start around $25k. I sincerely doubt teachers in your area START at $50k...maybe after 10 years of service. There were teachers in my NE highschool that retired making $50k after 30 years of service (my mother was a teacher's aid, that's how I know). My gf's mother was a teacher at a school in cocoa beach, fl and after 6 years was grossing $25k.

If you want to use that "average" thing - consider this: pilots "average" salaries are around what, $125k or so?

You just did. I graduated 2003 from ERAU. I wouldn't consider it a "real" education, I'd consider it an "overpriced" education. Going to college to learn to fly was a joke, but it was easy I suppose. All told including the $35k to get the private-CFII, I spent around $80k for tuition, R&B, living expenses, flying, etc. That $80k included 2 simulator classes valued at over $16k that are no longer being taught, and had I had the foresight I would've switched majors to BS Aerostudies and gotten out of them. I also did my 4-year in <3 years, while flying and working part time 25-30 hours per week. Again, if you take 5 years to do that you are definately NOT motivated.

 

Maybe were just at an all time low in the industry but I hope that we will recover from this and the industry will not be scared forever. I pray that flying will still have some digninty in the next decade and won't be considered as trade similar to Bus, Truck, driving. The real tragedy in this is that pilots are not uneducated bone heads, they are intelligent people with college degrees. We should fight to keep flying a respectable job.

 

On one hand you say they're not applying themselves, and on the other you use yourself as proof that it can be done, making no secret of how embarrassingly easy your degree was. Let's face it: a trained monkey could finish the ERAU Aero Sci degree in three years. The average person going to a real college to get a real education takes over four years.

Not even close.

Right...and this is behavior you never hear attributed to pilots?

 

Keep in mind, my post was in response to this:
...because apparently this guy thinks an ERAU degree is a "real" education. I was in fact, I was showing him it is not...and that it doesn't cost $150k.

If someone is in a field where it actually takes 4+ years to graduate (say a very technical degree) WTF are they doing in an airplane making $20k/yr?!? Why spend $100k on a degree and not use it to earn money? Isn't that the point of getting a "real" degree?

 

Definitely true...no one who "studied" aviation (myself included, unfortunately) at ERAU or UND has gotten a real education, unless being able to draw a picture of the 172R fuel system qualifies.

However, with ERAU's current tuition, estimated costs for 8 semesters can approach $150K:

Tuition and Fees $25,490
Average annual flight costs $ 10,000
Total, flight students $ 35,490, not including room and board.