Visual Approach
02-12-2009, 08:26 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 330 FO
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by Diver Driver
Yes, in theory this is correct, however, I have been given the published missed after conducting a visual approach. Once tower handed us off to departure, they just vectored us around, but we still had to execute the initial climb and a right turn before getting vectors.
It's a clear rule.
Tower giving you an IAP missed on a visual approach is not appropriate. Although you would never do it, technically once on the visual, you could de-select or change your nav-aid setup so that it has nothing to do with the IAP missed. The only experience I've had with this was back in the commuters when a Captain of mine launched into the ILS missed when on a visual approach go around, only to have our turn reversed and then get reprimanded by tower for making that uncleared turn.
You do a visual missed if on a visual approach, period. They can't ding you for that. You launch into an inappropriate turn or climb to something other than pattern altitude (for your A/C) and you've just opened yourself up.
My opinion of course, wouldn't be the first time I'm way off...
02-12-2009, 08:50 AM
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: CL-65, Right
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by Golden Bear
Might be time to review the AIM:
b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport. ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable assurance that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g., area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).
c. Operating to an Airport With an Operating Control Tower. Aircraft may be authorized to conduct a visual approach to one runway while other aircraft are conducting IFR or VFR approaches to another parallel, intersecting, or converging runway. When operating to airports with parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet, the succeeding aircraft must report sighting the preceding aircraft unless standard separation is being provided by ATC. When operating to parallel runways separated by at least 2,500 feet but less than 4,300 feet, controllers will clear/vector aircraft to the final at an angle not greater than 30 degrees unless radar, vertical, or visual separation is provided during the turn-on. The purpose of the 30 degree intercept angle is to reduce the potential for overshoots of the final and to preclude side-by-side operations with one or both aircraft in a belly-up configuration during the turn-on. Once the aircraft are established within 30 degrees of final, or on the final, these operations may be conducted simultaneously. When the parallel runways are separated by 4,300 feet or more, or intersecting/converging runways are in use, ATC may authorize a visual approach after advising all aircraft involved that other aircraft are conducting operations to the other runway. This may be accomplished through use of the ATIS.
d. Separation Responsibilities. If the pilot has the airport in sight but cannot see the aircraft to be followed, ATC may clear the aircraft for a visual approach; however, ATC retains both separation and wake vortex separation responsibility. When visually following a preceding aircraft, acceptance of the visual approach clearance constitutes acceptance of pilot responsibility for maintaining a safe approach interval and adequate wake turbulence separation.
e. A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.
f. Visual approaches reduce pilot/controller workload and expedite traffic by shortening flight paths to the airport. It is the pilot's responsibility to advise ATC as soon as possible if a visual approach is not desired.
g. Authorization to conduct a visual approach is an IFR authorization and does not alter IFR flight plan cancellation responsibility.
REFERENCE-
AIM, Canceling IFR Flight Plan, Paragraph 5-1-14.
h. Radar service is automatically terminated, without advising the pilot, when the aircraft is instructed to change to advisory frequency.
5-4-22. Visual Approach
a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight. This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial. Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport. ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable assurance that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g., area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).
c. Operating to an Airport With an Operating Control Tower. Aircraft may be authorized to conduct a visual approach to one runway while other aircraft are conducting IFR or VFR approaches to another parallel, intersecting, or converging runway. When operating to airports with parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet, the succeeding aircraft must report sighting the preceding aircraft unless standard separation is being provided by ATC. When operating to parallel runways separated by at least 2,500 feet but less than 4,300 feet, controllers will clear/vector aircraft to the final at an angle not greater than 30 degrees unless radar, vertical, or visual separation is provided during the turn-on. The purpose of the 30 degree intercept angle is to reduce the potential for overshoots of the final and to preclude side-by-side operations with one or both aircraft in a belly-up configuration during the turn-on. Once the aircraft are established within 30 degrees of final, or on the final, these operations may be conducted simultaneously. When the parallel runways are separated by 4,300 feet or more, or intersecting/converging runways are in use, ATC may authorize a visual approach after advising all aircraft involved that other aircraft are conducting operations to the other runway. This may be accomplished through use of the ATIS.
d. Separation Responsibilities. If the pilot has the airport in sight but cannot see the aircraft to be followed, ATC may clear the aircraft for a visual approach; however, ATC retains both separation and wake vortex separation responsibility. When visually following a preceding aircraft, acceptance of the visual approach clearance constitutes acceptance of pilot responsibility for maintaining a safe approach interval and adequate wake turbulence separation.
e. A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.
f. Visual approaches reduce pilot/controller workload and expedite traffic by shortening flight paths to the airport. It is the pilot's responsibility to advise ATC as soon as possible if a visual approach is not desired.
g. Authorization to conduct a visual approach is an IFR authorization and does not alter IFR flight plan cancellation responsibility.
REFERENCE-
AIM, Canceling IFR Flight Plan, Paragraph 5-1-14.
h. Radar service is automatically terminated, without advising the pilot, when the aircraft is instructed to change to advisory frequency.
02-12-2009, 08:51 AM
#25
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Tiki bar
Posts: 2,633
Originally Posted by Jay5150
I understand what your saying, but no, not in theory...
It's a clear rule.
It's a clear rule.
02-12-2009, 09:12 AM
#26
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Assuming you are flying into Class Bravo airspace like IAH, you are cleared for the visual approach. What is the proper procedure for flying a visual into a busy airport. Would you A) back it up with the ILS and use the FAF altitude or B) fly traffic pattern altitude conservatively, not too far from airport
Now you go-around, what do you fly the missed approach procedure from the ILS or the traffic pattern altitude. And keep in mind lost comms situation. IAH has reported left pattern in A/FD. They do clear you for visual even on marginal VFR days, so even the ILS missed may put you back in the weather.
Im getting mixed opinions on this and I havent really found anything concrete. Thanks
Now you go-around, what do you fly the missed approach procedure from the ILS or the traffic pattern altitude. And keep in mind lost comms situation. IAH has reported left pattern in A/FD. They do clear you for visual even on marginal VFR days, so even the ILS missed may put you back in the weather.
Im getting mixed opinions on this and I havent really found anything concrete. Thanks
2. Backup with ILS is a good idea in general esp with an airport that has multiple parallel runways. Sometimes in the haze people want to line up on the wrong one.
3. If you're visual then you go missed visual. Usually even if you have a published missed, when shooting an actual approach, at a busy airport as soon as you tell them "going missed" they will probably assign you a heading but always be prepared.
There's a link here of when the Chautauqua ERJ got stuck in the grass at JFK. Listen to it and you'll hear the controller telling everyone to go missed and giving them all vectors because they were cleared for the visual.
**On a side note when you check in with approach they tell you which runway to expect. You brief that approach and, correct me if I'm wrong, but if they say "Turn heading 150 intercept the LOC for runway 12 mainting 3.5k at or above XXX clear for the visual" they are still able to give you the published missed because you accepted the clearance to take the LOC which means you are prepped and ready for the published missed.
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 02-12-2009 at 09:24 AM.
02-12-2009, 09:32 AM
#28
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 50
***OK SO WE ALL AGREE THAT WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO TOWER INSTRUCTIONS, OR IN THE CASE OF LOST COMM'S WE FLY THE PATTERN AND LOOK FOR A LIGHT GUN*** But now here's another question...
How are we supposed to know what the correct pattern direction is? We don't have the answer to that question in any of our binders or manuals. And lets be honest...When was the last time ANYONE flying 121 has ever bought a VFR chart or AFD?
I know everyone is going to say use your own judgment, but what is the correct and official way to go about this?
How are we supposed to know what the correct pattern direction is? We don't have the answer to that question in any of our binders or manuals. And lets be honest...When was the last time ANYONE flying 121 has ever bought a VFR chart or AFD?
I know everyone is going to say use your own judgment, but what is the correct and official way to go about this?
02-12-2009, 09:36 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
There is no such thing as a missed approach once you are cleared for the visual. it is a go around anytime after that.
and if i were cleared for a visual approach i wouldnt fly any published missed approach procedure if i had to go around. especially if you are lost comm. can you imagine what it would be like if you actually did that instead of staying in the pattern. what if the missed approach is 10 miles away. how are you going to come back and at what time? you would be making up your own vectors and such just to come back to the airport. i can see it being way easier for the controlers to get other people out of the way if you have to fly the pattern again than it would be for them to guess when you were going to start venturing back to the airport. and yeah, get the light gun signal cheat card ready.
and if i were cleared for a visual approach i wouldnt fly any published missed approach procedure if i had to go around. especially if you are lost comm. can you imagine what it would be like if you actually did that instead of staying in the pattern. what if the missed approach is 10 miles away. how are you going to come back and at what time? you would be making up your own vectors and such just to come back to the airport. i can see it being way easier for the controlers to get other people out of the way if you have to fly the pattern again than it would be for them to guess when you were going to start venturing back to the airport. and yeah, get the light gun signal cheat card ready.
02-12-2009, 09:45 AM
#30
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,289
Originally Posted by caboarder2001
***OK SO WE ALL AGREE THAT WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO TOWER INSTRUCTIONS, OR IN THE CASE OF LOST COMM'S WE FLY THE PATTERN AND LOOK FOR A LIGHT GUN*** But now here's another question...
How are we supposed to know what the correct pattern direction is? We don't have the answer to that question in any of our binders or manuals. And lets be honest...When was the last time ANYONE flying 121 has ever bought a VFR chart or AFD?
I know everyone is going to say use your own judgment, but what is the correct and official way to go about this?
How are we supposed to know what the correct pattern direction is? We don't have the answer to that question in any of our binders or manuals. And lets be honest...When was the last time ANYONE flying 121 has ever bought a VFR chart or AFD?
I know everyone is going to say use your own judgment, but what is the correct and official way to go about this?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
