Skipping 1st year pay?
03-01-2009 | 01:49 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
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Let's not forget that not too many years ago, when and if you were hired at some regionals, you had to pay for your own training, ala, training contract. So now, all they do is pay you squat that first year, and then up it some the following years. We may think, now we are not paying for our training because it is not coming directly out of your own pocket, but actually, yes you are. Look at the second year pay increases at most regionals, it almost follows the amount, not exactly of course, of what that contract is for. So, YES, you are paying for your own training. They just make you think you're not.
03-01-2009 | 02:12 PM
#22
APC co-founder
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: B777
A possible approach that would involve a court case:
In most states (AFAIK...it was where my airline was based though) company's are not allowed to recoup training costs (pay for training, training bond) if that training is required to perform the work you were hired to do and you were hired without bringing it with you. So, you could make the case that probationary pay (especially at like, Continental!) is in effect a recoup of training costs...
Spongebob
In most states (AFAIK...it was where my airline was based though) company's are not allowed to recoup training costs (pay for training, training bond) if that training is required to perform the work you were hired to do and you were hired without bringing it with you. So, you could make the case that probationary pay (especially at like, Continental!) is in effect a recoup of training costs...
Spongebob
03-01-2009 | 02:46 PM
#24
APC co-founder
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From: B777
Probationary pilots certainly enjoy the negotiated work rules and most benefits, but in the event of a disciplinary hearing and/or termination unions have very little traction (if any) to assist. In that respect they are "at will" employees.
03-02-2009 | 01:58 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
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From: Right Seat
Great in theory, but the execution and enforcement of such an idea would prove to be difficult across different airlines/unions/pilot groups. It becomes doubly so difficult when your airline is growing and you, as a 10 month FO still on probation at your first airline job, have somebody hired junior to you, doing the same job you do, making more than you do simply because they jumped ship from their previous job. The emotions alone caused by such a policy would create an untenable situation all parties involved.
A better idea would be bargaining to eliminate the concept of probationary pay altogether, compelling airlines to pay a half-ass livable wage the first year (you know, like most every other professional industry). Making this gap between first and second year pay will decrease turnover and therefore training events, which is one reason (excuse) first year pay sucks so bad at many airlines.
$30/hr for an RJ FO in his/her first probationary year wouldn't make or break the financials of ANY airline, but that 25% payraise (assuming an average starting rate of $24/hr) would equate to another $450/mo...actually giving people a fighting chance to support themselves and their families.
...it'd be a step in the right direction...
A better idea would be bargaining to eliminate the concept of probationary pay altogether, compelling airlines to pay a half-ass livable wage the first year (you know, like most every other professional industry). Making this gap between first and second year pay will decrease turnover and therefore training events, which is one reason (excuse) first year pay sucks so bad at many airlines.
$30/hr for an RJ FO in his/her first probationary year wouldn't make or break the financials of ANY airline, but that 25% payraise (assuming an average starting rate of $24/hr) would equate to another $450/mo...actually giving people a fighting chance to support themselves and their families.
...it'd be a step in the right direction...
03-02-2009 | 02:08 PM
#26
Doing One Pilot's Job
Joined: Sep 2005
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I disagree. More pay for more experience. Then we wouldn't be trapped at any airline. It would give pilot groups more leverage. Management screws pilots because they know that they wont go anywhere else because they would lose pay and seniority. If a pilot could jump ship to another airline, then management would be at a disadvantage.
Additionally, how do you think pilots, pilot groups, and pilot unions would ever be united enough to get such a proposal even forwarded industry-wide, let alone put in place and enforced?
And by the way, you aren't "trapped" at any airline - you're free to take your services elsewhere any time you wish.
03-02-2009 | 02:13 PM
#27
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I disagree. More pay for more experience. Then we wouldn't be trapped at any airline. It would give pilot groups more leverage. Management screws pilots because they know that they wont go anywhere else because they would lose pay and seniority. If a pilot could jump ship to another airline, then management would be at a disadvantage.
If I'm an HR Person, I ask the question: "Why do I care about experience?"
Answer: I don't care. If they can pass training, we're good. Captains having trouble with poorly experienced pilots? Doesn't matter. it saves the company money anyway.
A 250 hour pilot that safely watches the autopilot from A to B is worth just as much as a 25,000 hour pilot that does the same thing by hand. The Difference? One costs more. It only matters when something goes wrong. And that's a rare thing, and its going to keep getting rare with more automation.
And there's a lot more 250 hour pilots in the labor market than there are 25,000 hour pilots. Training and automation is filling the gap left by experience, so unless the FAA sets minimum experience requirements for a 121 F/O, it won't change, and the pay won't go up. By the time we run out of 250 hour pilots, we lower the minimums again. That's right. Multi-crew.
03-02-2009 | 04:08 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
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From: Right Seat
Then the FAA needs to raise the minimum standards for a 121 pilot. They need to work on a lot of things. Why doesn't ALPA spend money in the right places? They need to influence legislation change FAR's.
03-02-2009 | 04:12 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
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From: Right Seat
Why do you think management would ever agree to a proposal like you are making, and if they did, what makes you think they'd ever hire more experienced (and more expensive) pilots over less experienced (less expensive) pilots given the option?
Additionally, how do you think pilots, pilot groups, and pilot unions would ever be united enough to get such a proposal even forwarded industry-wide, let alone put in place and enforced?
And by the way, you aren't "trapped" at any airline - you're free to take your services elsewhere any time you wish.
Additionally, how do you think pilots, pilot groups, and pilot unions would ever be united enough to get such a proposal even forwarded industry-wide, let alone put in place and enforced?
And by the way, you aren't "trapped" at any airline - you're free to take your services elsewhere any time you wish.
ALPA has been talking about this for a while. They need to push it forward.
03-02-2009 | 04:30 PM
#30
Doing One Pilot's Job
Joined: Sep 2005
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Thats why we need a national ALPA seniority list. Whenever there is an opening at any ALPA carrier, the position will be filled based on seniority with ALPA pilots. All pay will be based on ALPA longevity.
ALPA has been talking about this for a while. They need to push it forward.
ALPA has been talking about this for a while. They need to push it forward.
1. What about non-ALPA or non-union pilot groups? How do they integrate into things?
2. Would a pilot who has 8 years flying a 50 seat RJ go into an airline like Delta or AirTran making 9th year pay as a newhire on the 717?
3. How would you compel an airline to hire the most senior ALPA pilot?
and the biggie...
4. What would the mechanism be for getting each pilot group to have this language approved during collective bargaining, and would would the cost of such a proposal be to each individual pilot group during the bargaining process?
We can talk ideals and "needs" until the cows come home...YOU are ALPA so until somebody comes up with a workable solution that answers the questions above (just 4 of MANY) this topic will remain nothing but a pie-in-the-sky academic exercise on internet chat boards.
All the while, nothing will have been done to eliminate the concept of "probationary pay" and make the first year wage of working at an airline one that is at least halfway respectable for a professional with the education and work experience to get to that point.
Pick the battles you can win...
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