Like I said not an expert never flown the Dash, just a thought.

 

So, if unusual circumstances (weather [ice], mechanical, or pilot-error) puts a crew in a full-stall, how do we train them to recognize it and recover from it?

Airliners aren't supposed to do barrel rolls either, but I know of a 747-200 that did that on autopilot, at night (Failed attitude-gyro). (And a 727 that did it....well, that's debatable on the how/why). They were lucky..they recovered due to a combination of luck and previous experience. That's the whole point of upset-training.

I would contend that the current Approach to Stall training is ok, but we need to add full-stall recovery as well. And the point of that recovery is to play the AOA and minimize altitude loss (similar to windshear-recovery), not treat it as a precision maneuver of altitude +/- 100 feet.

We're not supposed to end-up in a wind-shear scenario, but we are trained to get out of it if we inadvertantly do.

 

Yup...since we have shaker, we are trained to respond to the shaker, which is pre-stall. I guess they assume that STATISTICALLY the safest thing to do is prepare us for the most likely scenario, and minimize altitude loss since that is feasible with shaker.

Philosophically, they are training us to deal with a shaker while maneuvering in the terminal area. It would probably take thousands of feet of altitude loss to recover from a real stall, especially in a turbojet (this has been demonstrated by mesa, PCL, SKW, and probably others).

Basically a full stall at low altitude is very bad news...they are training us to avoid them, not recover (probably not possible). If you get one in the flight levels, you can plummet ten thousand plus feet as needed to recover, and hopefully not hit all the guys enjoying RVSM below you.

Of course a Q400 is not a swept-wing jet...anyone know what the full stall recovery looks like?

 

With all that power and a straight wing with PROPS flowing air over it, I bet it recovers nicely compared to a swept wing jet, anyone have training on both?

 

I've got Do Jet time and BE-1900, the straight wing takes forever to stall and recovers pretty quick vs. the CRJ.....but again thats the sim. Still haven't found a sim that flies exactly like the real thing. For example the Be-1900 sim in LGA is horrible during engine failures to keep directional control until its trimmed but all the guys who used to train in the plane said its nothing like that. My guess is the airlines want it that way, so if it really did happen it would be a non event.

 

Guys we aretalking about recovery at first recognition. That being said how many of you have had the shaker inoped in training so that the recovery is initiated and first onset (buffet)? The Colgan plane was 31* NOSE HIGH, no transport category aircraft is even approved for that flight envelope.

So should we train for rolls as was pointed out above that could happen? How about pitch limits well outside the design envelope of the aircraft? We don't because the plane is NOT certified to be operated this way. All airline training should require unusual attitude/upset recovery, and this is done within the design envelope of the aircraft. We are not flying aircraft designed to be flown under these extremes. Could it happen, absolutely but this is where experience kicks in and hopefully the outcome will be successful.

 

well, why was it 31 nose high? The CA yanked back and held it there until the airplane went through the roof of the house..............If the nose was 31* before the CA touched the airplane, maybe when the AP kicked off it was trimmed to this I dunno the specifics, but 31 is an extreme amount of pitch up attitude for sure

 

I have a lot of time in the Q400 and I know that Vmc occurs about the same speed as Vso. If a full stall develops at the same time asymmetric power is applied, you will loose control of the aircraft.

Privately, I told my FOs to disregard what they have been told by company and FAA concerning a stall recovery which is to hold positive pitch attitude and add power. That will kill us all! If a full wing stall develops, first pitch down until the stall brakes and then add power.

 

funny how that is the technique you learn from the first lesson you practice stalls. these guys screwed the pooch on this one. unfortunately improper stall recovery seems to be the culprit. they must have been caught completely off guard not expecting that to happen and improperly corrected for the situation.

just another example of how sticking to the basics can pay off, and a terrible tragedy is what it takes as a reminder.

 

I think when one goes to Gulfstream Airlines to learn how to fly the desire for learning the BASICS goes out the window........., flame all you want, but this is Pre-solo Private pilot stuff guys.