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Originally Posted by DMEarc
(Post 609229)
I would venture to say his training prepared himself for this. The blatant disregard for situational awareness is the obvious cause of the accident. Let's look at the facts.
-Capt. Renslow was had just come off 3 consecutive stand-up overnights. -He could not afford a crashpad and therefore slept in loud an noisy crewroom. -First Officer Shaw had commuted in on red-eye FedEx flight from SEA via Memphis -Shaw had been awake since her 0600 arrival in EWR Here are two people, obviously tired flying a late night flight, after a 1 1/2 hour taxi. On the approach to Buffalo that night, they were talking. Breaching Sterile Cockpit? Yes! But you all do it and you know you do. So now we have these two, forgetting to put the power up, talking to eachother about absolutely pointless topics, he calls for the gear and flaps and the airplane goes crazy. For all they know the airplane was flying normally. Stick shaker, AP disconnect and he pulled up and applied power. She took it upon herself to retract the flaps to ZERO. (Procedure prob calls for Power, MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, wait for POSITIVE RATE and GEAR....THEN FLAPS to 5? ETC ETC ETC) Now he has aggravated the stall to the point of no returns (At this point they had already lost too much ALT). Those are all facts. It caught them by surprise. She probably shouldn't have done that. Not standard. This was an accident. It was most likely human nature to pull back and add power after being surprised with the airplane going out of control like that. OMG WOW More shock!!! I can't friggin believe officers are expected to work with a schedule such as that!!! SHOCKING!!! The people need to know about this stuff... It's obvious with that FO fatigue played a major role! Solid-State PS ok I'd also fly with DMEarc... The Dude and DMEarc... that's it at this point |
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 609214)
Not according to Bombardier, Colgan, Transport Canada, or NASA (who all testified today).
A couple things I noticed in the hearing (biased, b/c I do recognize the pilots were likely @ fault, but I think Colgan is trying to avoid any responsibility in the matter):
Colgan pilots - what's the deal with your sick call procedures? Do you really not call in sick when your sick, but rather fatigued? I'm not a Q pilot, so I can't reference the stall recovery procedures. However, we are one of the majority of airlines that teaches stall recovery with minimal altitude loss. We do not train to the pusher and we do not train in unusual attitudes like the former head of training said. How do you train unusual attitudes in an aircraft that is part 25 certified and isnt certified for unusual attitudes??? Sick policy? here is the skinny. If you call in fatigued, you are removed from the line and in the chief pilots office. Period. If you call in sick even 12 hrs prior, the company can ask for a doctors letter. If you don't produce one, guess what? Missed trip. When do they ask for a doctors note? It's up to the discression of the crew scheduler and the chief pilot. Can you use sick time for personal time? no. Does sick time go away if you don't use it? bet your hind end it does. If you do a gate return at colgan or air return or whatever, expect to be scrutinized hard. Some of this if from BS write up's or the normal stuff. However, if you are the CA, you are wrong until you prove yourself right. Example, My left main didn't come up one day. I did an air return, and the DO had already left me a message, and the MX boys were checking gear pins before I could even open the cabin door. Old school colgan is showing it's face in this hearing. With ALPA help, and the hearing, hopefully most of the old school tactics and bs will go away. My .02 |
Originally Posted by SolidState
(Post 609217)
WOW!
After reading these posts and the "politically correct" sociology/psychology most of you seem to exhibit with all the various excuses regarding pilot "stick and ruder man" oops "stick and rudder person" skill I personally won't get in an aircraft with ANY OF YOU e. STUFF IT! |
Originally Posted by 577nitro
(Post 609237)
Sounds like a slime reporter fishing for a story. Notice only 4 post. Moderator yank this clown.
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Originally Posted by tr disagree
(Post 609180)
Maybe the FAA will rethink the age 65 rule and put the retirement age back at 60
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I'm not a reporter just a concerned citizen! I'm trying to help you guys by commenting that the schedule both FOs had was totally out to lunch! We have laws I believe up here that govern the hours a semi truck driver can operate. What about the aviation industry? Is there not criteria regarding time between flight schedules to provide enough sleep for FOs?
Also I'd like to ask if hours such as these are systemic in the industry? Solid-State |
Who cares if he is a reporter...maybe he will publish an article that shocks people and changes things....
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Originally Posted by bull
(Post 609249)
Who cares if he is a reporter...maybe he will publish an article that shocks people and changes things....
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Originally Posted by 577nitro
(Post 609250)
Oh your so much a reporter! Concerned citizen my skinny rear end! NOBODY ANSWER THIS CLOWN or your words will end up on CNN, NBC, ABC or one of those other liberal **** stations. BTW, I HATE reporters.
I agree though that reporters lurking on a public forum are not being professional and responsible. And if you (SolidState) really are just a "concerned Citizen", then stop being obnoxious. |
Originally Posted by DMEarc
(Post 609229)
I would venture to say his training prepared himself for this. The blatant disregard for situational awareness is the obvious cause of the accident. Let's look at the facts.
-Capt. Renslow was had just come off 3 consecutive stand-up overnights. -He could not afford a crashpad and therefore slept in loud an noisy crewroom. -First Officer Shaw had commuted in on red-eye FedEx flight from SEA via Memphis -Shaw had been awake since her 0600 arrival in EWR Here are two people, obviously tired flying a late night flight, after a 1 1/2 hour taxi. On the approach to Buffalo that night, they were talking. Breaching Sterile Cockpit? Yes! But you all do it and you know you do. So now we have these two, forgetting to put the power up, talking to eachother about absolutely pointless topics, he calls for the gear and flaps and the airplane goes crazy. For all they know the airplane was flying normally. Stick shaker, AP disconnect and he pulled up and applied power. She took it upon herself to retract the flaps to ZERO. (Procedure prob calls for Power, MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, wait for POSITIVE RATE and GEAR....THEN FLAPS to 5? ETC ETC ETC) Now he has aggravated the stall to the point of no returns (At this point they had already lost too much ALT). Those are all facts. It caught them by surprise. She probably shouldn't have done that. Not standard. This was an accident. It was most likely human nature to pull back and add power after being surprised with the airplane going out of control like that. B) This accident shows in many ways the brokenness of the "regional" airline business model... it's all cost based and as long as we're not willing to pay more for it, we'll continue to get marginal pilots flying us around.. The pay sucks, the training sucks, and the workrules and schedules suck.. who else would take a job like that in this day and age unless they too maybe also suck? I took crap wage jobs 15 years ago because then (unlike now) there were jobs to be had at the mainline, and there was a sort of light at the end of the tunnel (ASA to new hire American in 4 yrs).. back then The mainline was 25X the size of the "regional"... but due to weakening scope and lobbing by the ATA, the mainline is now about the same size as the regionals... which is to say, the days of using it as a stepping stone are long gone... so why are people still sinking $50K into training to then take $19K/yr jobs??? Why? but when you hire people who listen to: Life in the skies- How to become a pilot and get a job flying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86nC9...eature=related what do you expect? |
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