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Originally Posted by FL450
(Post 607210)
I nor any here has a problem with you offering your opinion however, when its condescending in nature towards one particular group thats what I am concerned about. You took a pretty hard hit at the regionals which doesn't affect me since I'm corporate, however I know many regional pilots who are highly qualified in their craft and this was a insult to single out one group. I felt like as a corporate driver you felt as if this doesn't happen on our side as well and just focused on one segment of a vast industry. However hindsight is 20 / 20...
This accident affects us ALL. A crew had difficulty, and for whatever reason(s), perished as a result. We need to learn as much about this accident as we can, lest we be destined to repeat it. I’m positive this crew did not predict the outcome the night before, that same night, or even moments before the tragedy occurred. They were fighting their own battle, just like we all do during every flight. A sequence occurred, likely very rapidly, that the crew could not overcome. Just like any major accident it becomes, more often than not, ‘too late’ before any conclusion but tragic results. This is why it is called an “accident”. We must study, learn, and train from every accident and situation to become skilled and competent. To be a student of accidents is to be well equipped. The investigation may reveal a cruel defect in training, aircraft design, fatigue, CRM, etc. in which we may have all been guilty of or that which we all have been at risk to during each flight. To say this accident doesn’t affect you, well, you are not wise. To those lives that we lost, my thoughts are with them. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 607343)
If I remember correctly, and I'm probably wrong, but I believe that they concluded it was a "contributing" factor, but not a "primary" or "main" factor. I believe the CORPEX accident was the same.
When you read through the reports and look at the error chain that evolved in those wrecks, it's all too easy for the investigative agencies to conclude it was "human factors", etc with fatigue being contributing but not primary. I PERSONALLY don't feel that way, but thats the way they are seeing it. Until fatigue is the PRIMARY causal factor in an an accident that kills people, flight/duty times more than likely won't ever change. However, one positive thing that came out of the AA/LIT was the change to reserve time being considered for duty time. exactly. they have gone in circles with regard to fatigue being the primary cause of an accident. After seeing the facts put out by the ntsb i believe that it will be one of the leading factors when the final decision is made. I am not jumping to conclusions or trying to do my own investigation. I do believe however that the chain of events that lead up to the accident culminated with a long duty day and fatigue which would impare the judgement of any of us. |
Originally Posted by sandlapper223
(Post 607396)
This is perhaps the most shortsighted statement I have read from a colleague in some time. By colleague, I mean fellow aviator. By shortsighted, I mean thoughtless.
This accident affects us ALL. A crew had difficulty, and for whatever reason(s), perished as a result. We need to learn as much about this accident as we can, lest we be destined to repeat it. I’m positive this crew did not predict the outcome the night before, that same night, or even moments before the tragedy occurred. They were fighting their own battle, just like we all do during every flight. A sequence occurred, likely very rapidly, that the crew could not overcome. Just like any major accident it becomes, more often than not, ‘too late’ before any conclusion but tragic results. This is why it is called an “accident”. We must study, learn, and train from every accident and situation to become skilled and competent. To be a student of accidents is to be well equipped. The investigation may reveal a cruel defect in training, aircraft design, fatigue, CRM, etc. in which we may have all been guilty of or that which we all have been at risk to during each flight. To say this accident doesn’t affect you, well, you are not wise. To those lives that we lost, my thoughts are with them. I think you misunderstood FL450's post. He wasn't saying that the accident or mishap didn't affect him since he was corporate; he was saying that the following statement made in a previous post that talked about training at the regional level didn't afffect him because he was a corporate pilot and wasn't part of the GROUP that the poster was singling out: I think the issue is the airlines' (especially the regionals) tendency to push people through training who don't have the necessary stick and rudder and/or judgment skills to safely operate a complex aircraft. I've seen it with my own eyes numerous times as a former regional guy. |
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USMCFLYR and FL450,
My apologies, as this is the result of perusing a thread and reading a post out of context. On the face of it, I read a short-sighted comment, but after reading the entire banter, I see the different perspective. However, I still believe there are great lessons to be learned from every type of aircraft accident/incident and or scenario -- the reason: We are still around to read about them. |
Originally Posted by Airsupport
(Post 607402)
After seeing the facts put out by the ntsb i believe that it will be one of the leading factors when the final decision is made. I am not jumping to conclusions or trying to do my own investigation. I do believe however that the chain of events that lead up to the accident culminated with a long duty day and fatigue which would impare the judgement of any of us.
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The duty cycls of Marvin and Becky,as well as their complete life histories in the days immediately before the accident will be public knowledge by mid-week. Even though the NTSB will not pulish nor come to any findings or conclusions during this public hearing, it will shed light on many things we have been speculating about.
Of particular interest effects of cummulative fatigue on the pilots and their effective cognitive abilities at the time of the accident. I will be paying close attention to the expert testimony on this subject. The NTSB will also hear some expert testimony on the training and experience of the crew. It is important to remember that all training, to include subject matter and syllabi, are approved and monitored by the FAA. The FAA oversight includes approval of all flight manuals and company ops procedures in effect on Feb. 12. The experience factor will also draw some scrutiny and it will be enlightening to discover the cold weather operating experience of the crew and in particular Capt. Marv who recently transitioned from the Saab out of IAH. If the experience (cold weather) was lacking, did the FAA approved training fill this gap? Did his training include a tail stall? If so this could have been negative training as Bombardier asserts that the Q 400 IS NOT susceptible to a tail stall. Hiring minimums and experience for a Part 121 carrier is governed by the minimums established by the FAA. Colgan, like all carriers, will hire the best that they can attract to their ranks through their screening and hiring process. So are the minimums and hiring processes adequate? Will the NTSB touch these subjects? Blue |
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
(Post 607002)
The article mentioned insufficient training. If this eventually is a contributing factor, I submit that the FAA should bear some of the responsibility since THEY approved the syllabus.
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Originally Posted by Purpleanga
(Post 607242)
Well what exactly is your opinion of this Mr corporate driver? We are all kind of confused. Is it that the pilots had no skill because of regional airline training like you stated in the other post? Or are you trying to blame these guys for pilot error before the investigation is concluded? I don't know but that's the way your opinion comes across to me.
Captain's Training Faulted In Air Crash That Killed 50 - WSJ.com |
Originally Posted by meeko031
(Post 607797)
Great observation and point. It should also include the instructors and check airman, but before it gets back that far, they will cut off the paper trail and blame the individual instead.(its easier and less expensive that way) That's how it works! Not just with this profession but everywhere else, just to save face!
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